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Warrant Officer Avril Jno-Baptiste-Jones: When you tell me you don’t see colour, you’re denying my uniqueness.

Capt Adam Orton: Hi! I’m Captain Adam Orton and this is the Canadian Army Podcast. You know, there’s been a lot of discussions going on these days about issues like diversity, gender, culture change in the Army, and we’re going to talk about all those things through the lens of our guest which is Warrant Officer Avril Jno-Baptiste-Jones. And she is currently Chief Clerk with 4 Engineer Support Regiment in Gagetown. Welcome to the podcast, Warrant!

WO Jno-Baptiste-Jones: Thank you, sir! I’m very happy to be here. Very very happy to be doing this podcast.

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Capt Orton: I got to say, just in the pre-conversation before we kicked off, I love your energy so I think it’s going to be a good one. So, I guess, what made you join the Army?

WO Jno-Baptiste-Jones: The reason I joined the military is I was at a point in my life—young girl, immigrant from the Caribbean, looking for something positive, something I could be part of a team—contribute. And, in the end, elevate myself, you know, with skills, knowledge, and so on and so forth. And a friend in the U.S. Military told me: “Hey, you should try to join the Canadian Military.” And I considered it because I saw what the military had done for him. So, I was in Winnipeg at the time. And I walked by the recruiting centre and I peeked inside to see if there was anyone that looked like me. And I didn’t. And I hesitated. Because, you know, I’m an immigrant, you know, Black girl, dark skin, an accent. By virtue of that, you already feel a little bit of an outcast. So I wasn’t sure how I would be received. But eventually, you know, I met a girl at the bus stop, a Black girl. She’s like, I asked her and she says: “Yeah, it’s great. And that was my confirmation. I went in and I signed up. And the rest like they said, is history.

Capt Orton: Just needed a little push from a friend at the bus stop.

WO Jno-Baptiste-Jones: Well, she wasn’t a friend. She was just a random girl in uniform. A random black girl.

Capt Orton: They say a friend is just a stranger you haven’t met. Right?

WO Jno-Baptiste-Jones: Yeah.

Capt Adam Orton: So, did you find that? Did you find what you were looking for when you went in?

WO Jno-Baptiste-Jones: Initially, it was hard. I doubted myself. I wondered: “Is this really for me? Why am I doing this?” And I stopped and I thought: “You know, there’s no turning back—you must win, you must go through this.” And I had gone through, you know, being an immigrant child, I had gone through a lot of hardships, where, you know, everyone had turned their back on me, because of my family life situation. And the Canadian Forces gave me that family. It gave me something to look forward to; it gave me—you know, it helped me, push me to dream big, and keep moving.

Capt Orton: So, you walked into the recruiting centre, you talked to the person there, and now you’re in the military. Tell us a little bit about your career and how you got to where you are today.

WO Jno-Baptiste-Jones: So, initially, I looked into joining the Regular Force. But, I thought I have to take baby steps. Because I’m not sure if this is really for me. This is someone telling me: “Hey, this is what I think you should do. I think you have what it takes to be a soldier.” And I doubted myself. I didn’t think so because you know from watching TV, you see soldiers, female soldiers, and I thought, well, I’m not like them. There’s no way I’m going to be successful in this. You know, I am a girly, girly, you know, dress-wearing, high-heeled, handbag-carrying girl that likes to look pretty. From what I saw, soldiers were tough. Anyways, I got in. And I said I’ll join the Reserves just to get a feel for what it is that I want to do and if this is really for me. So, at the time I lived in Winnipeg, Manitoba. I joined the Reserves there. I went through Basic Training. And then I left Winnipeg two years after I joined I was just a Class A soldier. And two years after I joined I came back to Toronto because it was always my desire to come back to Toronto because I moved to Winnipeg under circumstances beyond my control. I had, you know, pretty much nowhere to live. And that’s where I had to go. I came back and, still in the Reserves, I worked at LSCA—and it’s at LSCA, they said to me: “Hey, you’re good at this. Why don’t you consider joining the Regular Force?” And I did. So this is two years in uniform. And I did and they came back and they said: “Oh, so yep, you got accepted to the Regular Force. You have to go back to Basic Training.” And because of what I went through in Basic Training, I said to them, I said: “Nope, if I have to go through that treatment, again, I want no part of it.”

Capt Orton: What did you go through during Basic Training?

WO Jno-Baptiste-Jones: The times that I went to Basic Training, they talked down to you, they swore at you, they made fun of my complexion—that I was dark, my hair was different. I remember specifically, once we went to the gas hut, and everyone at the end of it, we decontaminated with Fuller’s earth. And then everyone was brushing their hair out at will. I am black here. We have that natural curl to it. We can’t brush it out. Well, I got in trouble. I had to end up my whole section is doing push ups and extra duties because the Fuller’s earth couldn’t come out of my hair. So I didn’t—I was the only Black girl, Black person. So because of that, the section was getting extra duties, push ups, because they like well: “You don't look like everybody else. What’s wrong with this picture?” And I’m thinking, but I’m not. We have the uniform in common. But I’m not—look at me, I’m not like everybody else. And someone may look at it and think: “Well yeah, you’re a soldier. We are supposed to be one.” But I’m like: “When you tell me you don’t see colour, you’re denying my uniqueness.” You know? So anyways, back to my CT application. They came back and I said: “Nope.” And she went back to the career manager, and then they said: “Okay, well, we’ll employ you on Class B.” So this was my very first Class B.

Capt Orton: So, like a full-time job of some sort?

WO Jno-Baptiste-Jones: A full-time job so you can have enough time. So, when you apply again, you won’t have to do Basic Training—because it was a time-in-force type of thing that gave you the qualification to be a recruit school bypass at the time.

Capt Orton : Right.

WO Jno-Baptiste-Jones: So they employed me for a little while. And a year later, we applied again, and they were like: “Oh, perfect. Congratulations! You will be a Private again. But this time, just recruit school bypass.” And that was it. And I went through. I was excited. I got posted to Kingston. Still relatively new to the military. And it was in Kingston there was this colonel. Her name was Colonel Karen Ritchie. Somebody had seen me in Kingston and says contact Colonel Ritchie, and she’s sort of affiliated with an organization called DVMAG, and she’d love to hear from you if you want to, you know, I think you have a lot to contribute. And from then, I joined DVMAG way back in 1997 because I knew, even as a private, I knew I had something to contribute to help the Forces—integrate or bring in new ideas or just throw out new ideas for visible minorities, especially the group that I represent women, Black women.

Capt Orton: Can you explain to people what DVMAG is and kind of what they do?

WO Jno-Baptiste-Jones: DVMAG is Defence Visible Minority Advisory Group. It’s one of the four designated groups that was put in place to sort of assist the Defence Team on matters with the designated groups. So DVMAG is for visible minorities. And Black women are part of that group. So, in my case, it would be to assist with, or just put out ideas or be consulted on matters of dealing with racial stuff here. And so, a wide wide range of topics or things that are unique to us—that we don’t fall into the regular mainstream, you know, things for members of the Canadian Forces.

Capt Orton: You referenced that you were part of this organization at a relatively early stage in the military. Do you feel that your input and your participation had an impact?

WO Jno-Baptiste-Jones: Ah, honestly, at a very, very, very young, in the military, no one listened. I mean, I’m drawing from my own example. I’ve worn my hair natural. I chose to wear a very, very low hair cut now. But back then I chose to wear my hair natural. Natural hair is bulky here. The dress regulation stated, you know, one thing, but as Black women with natural hair, we could not meet those standards.

Capt Orton: Right.

WO Jno-Baptiste-Jones: So, I brought that to, you know, the chain of command’s attention. But nobody really understood what that meant. I remember, I think it was in Borden, and there was lotion—something to do with a lotion. And it left a sort of an oily mark on a wall or something. And they’re like: “What are you doing? What is that?” And I was like, well, as Black people, in our hair, we have to put oils in our hair in order to maintain it. And, as same as our skin. We have to moisturize probably a little bit more than you, you know. And you bring that to people’s attention. And I was called drama. I was called oh my goodness, I was said, oh: “This is not the Oprah Winfrey Show. What is this?” You know, when you try to explain things to them? So did I make an impact? I think within the DVMAG community, yes, I was highly regarded. But in the CF at large, I think I educated my little circle.

Capt Orton: Right.

WO Jno-Baptiste-Jones: And as far as that getting out—different things, just education and all that, I was silenced. A lot.

Capt Orton: Right.

WO Jno-Baptiste-Jones: Because people feel what they don’t know.

Capt Adam Orton: Right. Yeah, of course.

WO Jno-Baptiste-Jones: So, when you’re trying to bring something, you know, simple to somebody’s attention. It’s sometimes uncomfortable.

Capt Orton: Yeah, absolutely. Especially when you’re at a junior rank on top of that.

WO Jno-Baptiste-Jones: Oh, yeah.

Capt Orton: So looking back on that person that you were then, how do you feel about those circumstances? Like how do you feel about what you tried to do and how, in some cases, it was maybe less well received than in others?

WO Jno-Baptiste-Jones: I think now as we are now we have come a long way. There’s still improvements but we have gone leaps and bounds as far as these matters are concerned because I look at—we started with cornrows for Black women, we started cornrows and DVMAG was consulted. And they’re like: “Yeah, Black women can have cornrows.” But, what a lot of people don’t know is for a lot of us cornrows is a child’s hair style. Like pigtails—it’s a child’s hair style. So, a lot of us, you know, we look at it like, oh, they have something in place. But for some of us that choose not to do that, we don’t have many options. So we have come a long way. I think the dress regulations is under review. So I think there’s a lot of changes coming in. Which is going to be good changes as far as, including us.

Capt Orton: And as a senior NCO, now, do you feel like your voices are maybe a little bit better heard?

WO Jno-Baptiste-Jones: Absolutely. Definitely. Yes. Yes. Yes. Because, I think, the world is changing. Canada is changing. And the Canadian Armed Forces are changing. It’s changing for the better. So yes, I believe I am.

Capt Orton: Let me ask you this. At the beginning, you kind of talked about how, when you went into the recruiting centre, you didn’t see anybody like you. And, we touched a little bit about your experience with DVMAG and all this stuff. For people who are listening, why is it important that people see people like them in these roles? Why does it matter?

WO Jno-Baptiste-Jones: I think it’s important for people to see people like them—be it race, gender, and all that in an organization so they can identify. It’s all about identification. It’s someone I can identify with. And with that we can grow as an organization, if everyone, I think, in my opinion, if we all had someone we can identify with. Because it’s not all going to be a bed of roses all the time. But say I got into something, an issue that was difficult to deal with as a Black person, a Black woman, there was somebody I could go to and say: “Hey, this happened. What do you think?” You know, I mean, somebody can hear you. But if they cannot identify, sometimes it’s problematic. And I’ll give you an example—I use the example of—I’ll go back to it, because it’s my passion: hair. I could have gone to every sergeant, Chief MWO, and say: “This is the problem with my hair.” And they could say: “Yup, yup, yup.” If they cannot identify, they will never really understand. You know, what the problem really is, if it’s not somebody like you, you will never understand that when my hair gets water in it, it turns into a big afro. You have to know that to experience it to be like: “Okay, if I want to achieve, and I told them, you know, this is a problem,” you’re like, “yeah, my wife has the same problem, I get it. I understand.” So you can speak to somebody on your behalf, kind of like smooth things out.

Capt Orton: So, at the beginning, we were talking about, you know, how, as a private, sometimes your voice doesn't get heard as much, and how, especially as a warrant, it's much easier to be heard and effect change. How did junior soldiers get their voices heard?

WO Jno-Baptiste-Jones: I believe everyone has the ability to effect change. And even as privates, what we need to do as senior members of the Canadian Armed Forces, we need to listen. They have a voice and they may have great ideas. It’s us. We need to remove their rank out of it, and listen to the individual. And once you listen to the individual, I think you will get more information because I think people automatically see private—ah, this person doesn’t know too much. But privates coming in now, are way more educated and have way more life experience. So they, too, can be contributors. So it’s up to us, as the seniors, to listen. You know, take our positions of power and influence out of the way, and let’s do it as people first. And we’ll be on a good road if we take that approach.

Capt Orton: And with, I guess, your experience up to this point, how do we create an environment where people can express themselves and feel comfortable doing so?

WO Jno-Baptiste-Jones: Reeducation. I believe, the way we are structured, a lot of times, we think power and position equal respect. Yes! We have to have respect; however, we have to change the way we do business. We have to change the way we give instruction. We have to change the way we look at people. And that will allow everyone to be open to us.

I went through a situation once where I had no confidence in the chain of command. And something really terrible that happened to me. And I did not go to them because of how they are. This is my Corporal self.

Capt Orton: Right.

WO Jno-Baptiste-Jones: You know, and as a Warrant looking back, I can say: “Wow!” A lot of people use the term: “Oh, I have an open door policy.” No, they don’t. A lot of people—that’s just something they say. Because when it comes down to, to be in, they don’t know how to be human beings because the rank always takes play in: “I am a rank before I’m an individual”. And once we’ll stop thinking like that, we will create a safe place, an open forum for the junior ranks to speak to us and be honest and open in how they feel, what they go through, and so on and so forth.

Capt Orton: You know, we talked about how things have come a long way. What can we do better moving forward from where we are now?

WO Jno-Baptiste-Jones: I would love to see someone of colour high up there in a chain of command in the powers that be—the people that are actually making the changes. I look around, I still look around. Even as a Warrant, I still look to see, who’s there? Who’s going to be advocates? Who’s going to press on for us? So you look up and you’re like well, who’s going to stand strong and be there for us? And I haven’t seen that yet. But then again, you have to come from the bottom to make it to the top. So hopefully, you know, we’ll have someone out there.

Capt Orton: So, let me ask you this. Different people experienced different levels of challenge throughout their careers and they make decisions based on that—like, for myself, you know, I left the Regular force, I joined the Reserves for various reasons. Why do you stay in the Army?

WO Jno-Baptiste-Jones: I stay in the Army because the Canadian Armed Forces is one of the most amazing institutions out there that provide skills, knowledge, experience, adventures. I believe it’s the only organization that does not check you out before they check you in. And what I mean by that is, if you’re the average person—an average person on the street, and you feel you have what it takes to join the military. And you go to the recruiting centre, you will not be refused.

Now, look at the other side of the coin—civilian life. You have your degree, and you are the most qualified person for a job and you go, you apply, you go to the interview; you may be disqualified, because they don’t like your look. Something as simple as that. You may be disqualified because your look is a certain way. You may have, I don't know, say dreadlocks or say a pixie cut, or whatever the case may be. But in the Forces, it’s not like that. If you think you have what it takes to be a soldier, you will be accepted. And I go the community—the Caribbean community all the time. And I’ve been invited to different forums with young boys and girls. And the parents approached me and be like: “Oh, wow, I want my son, I want my daughter to join this. Maybe you can talk to them.” And I will talk to these kids, and they would say to me: “Oh, well, do I have to cut my hair?” I said: “No, you don’t.” And: “Do you go through a lot? Or do I have to wake up at five o’clock every morning and go under the barbed wire and all this?” I'm like: “No, no, that’s just, you may do stuff in Basic Training, But after that as your trades qualification and then you go on and so forth.” And the reason I stay in is because I want to continue to put that message out there. I want to continue to be an ambassador for the Canadian Forces because I know what it’s done for me. And I know there’s a lot of young girls and boys, people, out there. No matter what age—young and old, that I think are looking for an opportunity. They have the drive, they have the knowledge they have what it takes to be soldiers. You know, sometimes you just need a little push—a little, little push. And then they take it from there. So that’s why I say. I want to continue to be an ambassador.

Capt Orton: I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us about your experiences in the Forces up to this point, and everything that you’ve gone through and also for sharing your hopeful and positive messages about what’s going to happen next.

WO Jno-Baptiste-Jones: Thank you very much. It is my pleasure. And I do plan on continuing advocating for the Forces because it’s a great organization; it’s you know—we’re not getting the best of press these days. But it is an excellent organization that I think that's so rewarding that anyone that becomes part of this, at the end of the day we’ll sit back and say: “Yes, those were my best years.”And now I’m speaking on that. I am enjoying my best years.

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Capt Orton: You know what? I feel the same way and I think we probably wouldn’t be here if we didn’t.

WO Jno-Baptiste-Jones: True.

Capt Adam Orton: Well, thanks again so much. That was Warrant Officer Avril Jno-Baptiste-Jones, and she’s shared her story with us. If you liked that and you have a story that you think is worth sharing, send us an email. It’s available in the show notes and we’ll be happy to take a look at it and see if we can get you on the podcast. I’m Captain Adam Orton for the Canadian Army Podcast. Orton out

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