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Chief Warrant Officer Jim Smith: We are the only organization that has unlimited liability, which means that you could task one of your soldiers to go somewhere and potentially die. That is the risk that you have to take as a leader.

Captain Adam Orton: Hi, I’m Captain Adam Orton with the Canadian Army Podcast. The Army Sergeant Major is the senior adviser to the Commander of the Army. But what does that really mean? And how does it affect the soldiers? Here to talk to us about what all that is, is the Army Sergeant Major himself, Chief Warrant Officer Jim Smith. Welcome to the podcast.

CWO Smith: Hey, thanks for having me.

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Capt Orton: So as the Army Sergeant Major, what are the priorities and things that you’re looking at that's going on right now?

CWO Smith: As the Army Sergeant Major, I’m the senior representative for all non-commissioned members in the Army. So, what’s important to soldiers is important to me. And what I strive to achieve is to make sure the Commander and senior leaders that are charged with decision making are advised of a soldier’s perspective when it comes to policies and how it affects them and capabilities. And how it affects our operations moving forward.

Capt Orton: So what are you telling the Commander right now about what’s going on with the soldiers?

CWO Smith: I tell them their perspectives, firsthand. They tell me what’s on their mind, and then I welcome that. I strive to create an environment that they feel comfortable—that they can rely on me. I think it’s my responsibility, as well as other chief warrant officers, at each echelon of leadership, should be available and accessible to explain the “why” to our soldiers. And I think we need to be approachable and available to them in order to lead, coach, and mentor them. Because they are the future and we need to privilege that.

Capt Orton: Can give us an example of some of the things we’re saying or some of the things you’re hearing?

CWO Smith: Some of the things we’re saying is a modernization of kits and equipment. That comes to me quite a bit. I get a lot of questions about personnel policies—which, you know, I can speak to, from an army perspective, and relate. I can influence military personnel command and how they influence policy and inform it. But also how it affects our members. So, if we look at a soldier who’s having difficulties with a policy, and then we need to challenge those policies, and I think I can be helpful in informing the Commander and—and some of the various senior leaders here in Ottawa to change some of those policies, when and where they don’t make sense.

Capt Orton: You know, I found as I’ve career progressed, I’ve gotten farther and farther away of who Private Orton is, you know, what I mean—and how to stay relatable with the troops. And it’s really tough to stay there, because you have all these policies in your head now. And you’re trying to enforce them and risk-mitigation and all that. How do you as the Army Sergeant Major stay in touch with Private Jim Smith and try and stay relatable to the troops?

CWO Smith: Man, if I could go back and do this all over again, I’d probably make the same decisions. I gotta be honest, the opportunity to take this position and what I try to do, and make it real is something I’ve really been focused on. I focused on this from the onset two years ago as I came in as the Army Sergeant Major. I recognized post-COVID that exposure and availability was going to be key to allow myself to connect with soldiers and try to demonstrate to them that they have a voice in me to utilize as I influence the Commander in his decisions—but also the institution and how they go about making sure we have an institution that’s ready to fight tomorrow. You know, when I say that, it’s a little bit harsh—but, you know, nobody cares how good we are until the government asks us to do a really hard mission somewhere at any time. So I think we need to be prepared for that. And then you can scale back the level of intensity according to the operation that you’re assigned to. So, does that make sense?

Capt Orton: Yeah, I think that somebody once described the job of preparing the military as being ready for anything. And they made a comparison to the police, where the police is like— they have a specific role. They always know what that role is; they have a cycle. But for us, it can be anything, fighting an insurgency near-peer warfare, like pandemic, forest fires—you never know what you’re really going to do. So you have to have those basics in place in order to be able to go out there and do the job.

CWO Smith: Unlimited liability is the key to all of this. Right? We are the only organization that has unlimited liability. Which means that you could task one of your soldiers to go somewhere and potentially die. That is the risk that you have to take as a leader. Right? You know, a lot of us have already experienced that. So it’s a reality of our profession, although it’s further to the right in a spectrum of conflict—but if you scale that back, you know, you have the same approach when it comes to domestic tasks: firefighting, floods, hurricanes, blizzards. There’s a number of things that we have already done that our population now expects us to be there. Right? Although it’s not a military solution that typically is the first option. But we are the last resort. And we need to ensure that we take that seriously throughout.

Capt Orton: So, you’re kind of mentioning some of the challenges of COVID and leadership. And, you know, an interesting thing that’s come up is the challenge of leading by email. Right? Because at a certain point, if you look at the strengths of leaders within the military, is that presence—that, being able to build that credibility, and then use that credibility to try and get difficult things done. I'm sure you have thoughts on the challenges of inspiring that level of motivation, when it’s an email or a talking head on the screen or something like that. Where do you see that going moving forward?

CWO Smith: Well, I think it gives us a hybrid option of communicating. It’s not leadership, though. Right? Let's not lead through emails and text messages. Let’s lead by being the leaders that we’re all designed to be. We are a people-centric organization that requires human interaction in order to be successful in operations. How do we do that? Our tools are available to help us on our day-to-day stuff. But to have easy and or difficult conversations, we need to ensure that we put the human dynamic into the conversations that need to be had—whether they’re difficult or not, that’s part of us being empowered as leaders in order to do so. And we need to make sure that we are as thorough as we can and take the time necessary to remedy, you know, some of the harder solutions that are required out there. Policy helps us but that human interaction is who we are. And we need to sustain it through it.

Capt Orton: You know, we throw the term leadership around a lot. And sometimes people perceive that as an officer thing, because they’re the leaders. But obviously, that’s not necessarily true. What does leadership mean? Like, what is what is at the core of leadership?

CWO Smith: Well, I’ll ask you firsthand. And I’ve asked this question on a number of some of my town halls in encounters with soldiers is: when did you ever get into the leadership lineup? Right? And you’ve gotten into lineups for dental, medicals, pay - potentially. You’ve been in lineups for different things—issuing kit. But you’d never got into a lineup that issued you leadership. And the one thing I will tell, especially our junior members, is the rank that you hold, or the rank that people hold is the qualifications that they’ve obtained. What they haven’t got, or what they brought with them, is leadership. It’s time and experience that are missing. So, then through time and experience, you will then gain confidence in the leadership ability to take soldiers to the next level. And that’s what it's all about—that’s how we develop leaders. Right? We will develop to be successful in operations tomorrow. Nobody cares how good we are today. They will care if there's people coming back in a different manner, which they left. And that’s what we need to make sure that we are focused on today’s competencies—whether it be as a leader and or a soldier. Because you got to be a follower to be a great leader. You’ve got to be a great follower. So that continues and perpetuates into, you know, positive leadership, highly effective, competent, and confident.

Capt Orton: The soldiers that are coming in today have maybe different experiences or places in the world than they’ve had 10 or 20 years ago. What are we doing to kind of meet them halfway as to what they’re coming in with and give them the training that they need to be successful in the Army?

CWO Smith: Personally, I think we need to do more in that space. I think we’re very good at tactical and technical competencies. As a learning organization, I don’t think we have provided newer soldiers with the right emotional, intellectual skill sets to deal with a lot of the human dynamics of what is the Canadian Army—like, a lot of what we do deals with human dynamics and life is hard. But we need to recognize that and provide skill sets at the lowest level that’s incremental and progressive up to including the senior ranks of which, you know, I have the privilege of serving today. Whether it’s a different way we are training, but I don’t think we need to train differently from a technical tactical, only with modernization of technology and skill sets, that’s going to evolve and it has been. But I think the human dynamic is a piece that we need to probably focus a little bit more on, especially for us as being a soldier-centric organization.

Capt Orton: Can you give us maybe some examples of how we’ve changed up to this point to kind of get there?

CWO Smith: Well, I think we have been. We’ve been evolving through it. We just don’t take the time to acknowledge that. The Army today operates differently than when I was a soldier a couple of years ago. You know, you can read my bio to know how long I’ve been in. But a couple of years ago when I was, you know, learning a lot—I’m still learning today, but I was really learning how to integrate into a military organization from Nowheresville, Nova Scotia. You know, I was born and raised a fisherman’s son—I had no idea how to spell infantry let alone infanteer.

How we trained then is different than how we’re training now. And I don’t think it’s soft. There’s an impression out there that exists, and I think it is different, because I think we treat soldiers better than we did back then. And I think we’ll continue to improve upon the training experience and making sure that our soldiers have the technical tactical competencies in order to train their replacement and the next generation, because we have to continue to do so. We train our replacements every day. And you need to be focused on that. And every opportunity is a learning opportunity. And when it comes to the harder stuff on the human dynamics and social skills, I think there are avenues that we could probably do a little bit better in. But I think we’re already better than we give ourselves credit for.

Capt Orton: You know, something, it’s tough for me in what you just said was: we treat our soldiers better than we did before. And it’s an argument as old as time. I’ve had it with tons of people and I’m sure you have too, is, you know: if you’re hard on soldiers, you’re gonna make them tough, and then they can face the challenges of the world. And that being nice to people, it softens them up, they’re not ready to fight. Why do you think it's important that we treat our soldiers better now?

CWO Smith: It boils down to two things for me: mutual respect and positivity. Those are two things that will motivate anybody to do anything you’ve ever asked them to do—because they feel valued in that organization. If you don’t feel value in it, you’re not going to stay in. Like, I’ve been very fortunate in my career to work for some great leaders. But I’ve also worked with some less great leaders. And I would love to go back and have a conversation with them, just to let them know that their approach is not what affected me. Actually, it motivated me to do better and be better as a person, which enabled me to be the best soldier that I thought I could be. I think soldiers that enrolled today have different expectations than we did in the past. And I think we need to empower and enable those expectations. But I think as we take those opportunities to learn and grow, this institution needs to learn to grow with the individuals that are joining so that we can build an institution that will grow with our population, but also be enabled to protect this nation if and when necessary.

Capt Orton: The question has come in a couple of times on the podcast is: “If I’m a soldier in a chain of command, and maybe I’m having some conflicts within that chain of command then I think there may be some issues”—it’s difficult sometimes to approach the chain of command with your perspective because of—we’re a really structure-heavy organization. And sometimes it’s hard to speak your mind, what would you tell the soldier that’s like, trying to figure it out? You know what I mean, and be honest about where they’re at?

CWO Smith: That’s a bit of a—that’s great. That’s a great question. What I would tell you is that respecting the chain of command is one thing. But if you have trust and faith in that chain of command, then you can be open and honest about a situation and it will be treated just as important as any other mission set that might be assigned to you. I think the really awkward space is when you’ve lost that connection.

But there’s other avenues. Right? I would say you can leverage a lot of different tools that were available when not as encouraged. But there’s a solution sets out there that you could leverage whether it be “phone a friend” options that might have experience in that mentorship. Seek a mentor—that’s highly encouraged. Someone that you trust that’s in a chain of command or not, but someone that you could confide in without ramifications or concerns for, you know, your mental or physical wellbeing in your current situation.

I think we are more open to having open and frank conversations than we give ourselves credit for. I just think, as an organization that is as busy as we are, sometimes we don’t stop and take that time just to have an open and frank conversation to really tease out the tenants of a situation or a problem. And it might not be a problem at all. It might just be a dramatization of a situation that could be resolved by just simply having an open and frank conversation that could be helpful for all parties involved. It might actually remedy solutions much earlier in the process than by some of the extremes.

Now, if it’s an extreme situation, the beauty of our evolution and culture is that we are more open and available to provide more mechanisms in place for our soldiers to use if and when necessary. I think as part of a learning organization, we don’t always get it right. But sometimes we create our own problems by not necessarily having that open frank conversation that would build with mutual respect and trust. Without respect, you’ll get no trust and without trust, you will not have a positive experience. That’s kind of how I boil it down. Without getting into specifics of who to go to, when to go to and, and follow in different paths of elevating problems. Then, personally, I’d like to deal with it at the front end, in order to avoid a lengthy and potentially costly resolution set.

Capt Orton: So you’re talking about kit a little bit earlier on; we talked about kit. What’s going on with that?

CWO Smith: Oh, let’s open up a can of worms! I think we need to make sure that we continue to modernize. So my number one piece of advice for the Commander: if you want to demonstrate modernization, we need to demonstrate it—show me and prove it. So put something in soldiers’ hands that says the Army is serious about continuing to improve our capabilities. But, I look at it, we need to make sure that we continue with providing the kit and equipment we need. Maybe it’s not always the most preferred option. But sometimes, with uniformity, there’s a mitigation that we’re going to have to attain. So I think we need to be able to fight tonight. We are not there yet. So I keep telling the boss: “Hey, when are we updating and modernizing our night vision capabilities?” That’s one thing that we need to get after; that is one thing to put on his plate often. And I am repetitive, I think—uniforms, we’re pushing forth on a five-colour variant of this uniform. I’d like to see this distributed across the Army not just to specific units depending on where they are in a deployment cycle or not. I’d like to see some in the full time and the part time force. Some in a headquarters. So we have a little bit of modernization, look and feel across the Army.

We have three urgent operational requirements for the battle group in Latvia. We need to make sure that we have CUAS or counter drones, if you want. We need to make sure that we put an anti-tank guided missile is the second requirement. And the third one is a short-range air defence capability—which, hopefully, bridges a gap to get us to a ground-based air defence system in the Army.

So there’s a number of initiatives on the go both for the individual, we are leveraging the Women’s Advisory Group on how to modernize our kit and equipment. So we’ve changed the way we size people. I’m pretty sure there’s technology available that will help better change the way our kit feels when we put it on because our body shapes are different. And we need to recognize that. So I can’t promise you when the stuff comes online—but we are getting new pistols, they are being distributed as we speak. So there should be some training that’s happening. I know, in the infantry school, they’re already working towards that piece. And the other kit we are working towards getting after. But, the problem when we have an urgent requirement—it’s the same people that’s working on the other requirements.

Capt Orton: Yeah, that’s right.

CWO Smith: So similar to those that are sitting in squadrons, regiments, battalions, and units—there are shortages all around. And staff efforts are another area where we could probably use a couple more folks putting pen to paper and having discussions on what capabilities we need tomorrow to get after it. And we haven’t fully recovered from an industrial perspective on producing some of the kit and equipment that we’re expecting our suppliers to provide for us.

Capt Orton: So, probably somewhere in a battalion, there’s a corporal sitting there, maybe they’re thinking about writing their release request and just like throwing it all away—and 25 years from now, they’re going to be the Army Sergeant Major…

CWO Smith: You never know.

Capt Orton: …So we would just say to them?

CWO Smith: Well, I’ll tell you straight up, you can go online and read my bio. And what my bio doesn’t say is I joined the Army for a full time job and a pension, originally. nd my career goal was to be a refrigeration technician. And I applied and was accepted and personal circumstances, a separation kept me from pursuing that goal and here I am today. I never reapplied. And attrition is a wonderful thing—I became the Army Sergeant Major. Notwithstanding, what I would say is, what’s kept me in the Army is the people, first off. The second thing is organized chaos. I don't know why, I kind of like it.

Capt Orton: Yeah, me, too.

CWO Smith: That’s kept me in the Green Machine for a long time. And, you know, in spite of what my personal goals were then, my personal goal now is to do the best that I can to make sure the Army is better tomorrow. And I won’t be around to assess that. So, just be humble, accept that some days are not gonna be the best day. This is not an easy life. I recognize that. My wife tells me that sometimes it’s not an easy life for them as well. So what I would say is, you know, however long you serve, I appreciate any minute that you spend in the Army. And I hope it is as positive as it can be. I hope the people around you are the reasons why you want to serve. Defending our country is something most people don’t sign up for. And the fact that you volunteered to serve only demonstrates who you are as an individual. And I appreciate that you signed up—because it’s a better life than most people give us credit for. And I think you got to take some time to smell the roses and reflect upon the positivity of service. It’s not an easy life. And you need a very strong support mechanism. And I don’t think we recognize that we have a support base with our families that are incredible. And we need to make sure that we’ve acknowledged it and thank them for their support, as I thank them for their service. So, I appreciate this time.

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Capt Orton: Yeah. Thanks so much for coming and talking to us; it’s been really great.

CWO Smith: Well, I hope it resonates with people. And you know, at the end of the day, you know, my approach is accessibility, availability, when I can—but to be humble enough to do this, to say, this could be you. Because I definitely didn’t think it was going to be me.

Capt Orton: Alright, thanks again. Really appreciate it.

CWO Smith: Hey, thanks for your time. I appreciate it.

Capt Orton: Well, that was Chief Warrant Officer Jim Smith, the Army Sergeant Major and I’m Captain Adam Orton for the Canadian Army Podcast. Orton out.

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