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Second Lieutenant Michelle Evans: That’s the new culture of the Army—people that want full answers and aren’t just being told: “do this because I told you so.”

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Captain Adam Orton: Hi! This is Captain Adam Orton with the Canadian Army Podcast. Today, I’m speaking to Second Lieutenant Michelle Evans, an Artillery Officer who has just come out of her training and is here at Army Headquarters. And she is going to tell us a little bit about her experiences so far. Welcome to the podcast.

2Lt Evans: Hi, Adam—thanks for having me.

Capt Orton: You’re welcome. Alright, so tell us a little bit about yourself.

2Lt Evans: My name is Michelle. I’m twenty-one. I’m from a tiny town called Fenelon Falls, Ontario.

Capt Orton: Oh yeah, I’ve been there.

2Lt Evans: Oh, really?

Capt Orton: Yeah.

2Lt Evans: That’s surprising! Not many people have. I joined the Army right out of high school. I went through RMC. I did 1.1 last summer, and am currently waiting for 1.2.

Capt Orton: For those listening at home that don’t know what that is, those are basically various levels of training that exist for incoming troops. So, what got you to join the Army?

2Lt Evans: It was kind of surprising to my family and friends—I don’t think they expected me to join. I don’t have any family in or any real exposure to the military. I was always just really interested in military history and military strategy. Growing up, I read a ton of books about it, and I knew it was something that I wanted to study at school. But I didn’t really know how to make that happen. And then, my mom suggested going to RMC and I think I laughed out loud in response to that. Because, I never considered joining or doing anything related to the military—like reserves or cadets. But the more I thought about it and the more research that I did, it seemed to make a lot of sense for me. I loved being in teams and being a part of something bigger than yourself. I was always the kid that was super into schedules and discipline so that seemed to make sense for the Army as well. Yeah, just a lot of those individual traits that, the more I looked into it, the more it made sense for me.

Capt Orton: I think a lot of the people I’ve talked to have a similar story in terms of—you know, there are some people who are just born military, their whole family is military, it was basically destiny for them to do it. But like, I was a tech support guy, and then I was like: “I don’t want to do this anymore; what’s the next best thing?” And it’s the same thing you’re talking about—people thought I would never do this and now here I am.

2Lt Evans: Yeah, it was definitely surprising to a few people.Bbut so far, I’m really happy with my choice.

Capt Orton: So, what did you expect when you joined? What did you think it was going to be like?

2Lt Evans: I pretty much had no idea what I was getting myself into. I was pretty scared, pretty anxious heading off to basic. I kind of just told myself that I was going to try it for a year—and after a year re-evaluate and decide if it was for me or not. They have that kind of program at RMC where you can do your first year of university, your Basic Training, and then you can leave if you don’t like it—you don’t owe them anything. It’s just as soon as you start second year that you start to owe time back. So, that kind of made me feel a bit better about signing the longer contract. Knowing that, if I did it for a year and I decided it wasn’t for me, I could still get out. And, other than that, I had absolutely no idea what I was getting myself into.

Capt Orton: And so, now you’ve done some stuff, what do you think so far? How is it?

2Lt Evans: I feel like I haven’t done that much stuff yet. I feel like most of my experiences have been in the training environment. Which are still really good experiences. Obviously ups and downs—like any university experience or any starting out a new career experience—but, so far, a lot of really rewarding experiences. I find that sometimes the hardest moments or the hardest challenges we have are the moments I look back the most fondly on. Because I guess they are the moments I am most proud of. So, so far, if I had to go back and do it again, I would.

Capt Orton: Shared hardships make strong comrades, as it is.

2Lt Evans: Yeah, exactly, yeah—the closest friends that you make are usually the ones you go through some not as fun times with.

Capt Orton: That’s right. Tell us about one of those challenges. Like, it shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone listening to this that there are tough parts to military training. So, what is some of the stuff that you had to go through that was tough?

2Lt Evans: There’s definitely individual experiences. I think for me, especially, having no idea what to expect going into it. A lot of the first couple phases of training were almost like culture shock—just adjusting to how to use a rifle, and how to make a bed with hospital corners. But every time that you were stressed or you felt that maybe you weren’t going to be able to figure things out on time, there was always another officer cadet or someone else on your course that maybe had a brother, sister, or dad in the military. And, they were more than willing to come and help you out. So, those moments before inspections, or the moments in the field where you’re really tired, and someone helps you out with something, are moments that you definitely remember.

If I had to pick like one challenging time, there were some tough times on CAF, I guess—when we were in the field for our final EX. Everyone is always super tired. And in our defensive, just in the trenches, just waiting—basically waiting at our time to be done in the defensive. You just make some good memories and some good friends just hanging out in your trench with your fire team partner.

Capt Orton: I think of Afghanistan as an example where you're sitting in a tower for twelve hours with the same person. And, there is literally nothing to do but stare out at nothingness, and you’re with that person. And, it’s like you do that for enough days, and you will have logged more time sitting with that person, doing air quotes, nothing—you’ve got to talk. And then, you become friends because what else are you going to do other than sit in silence.

2Lt Evans: Yeah, exactly, and I mean that happened in only three days in a training environment. I can only imagine what it would be like in the real world, and over a longer period of time.

Capt Orton: You were talking about the culture shock experience too. And I remember, and I think everybody has had some version of this story. You’re driving up to St. Jean and it’s this massive ten story, brutalist architecture building that looks like a prison—and you’re just like: “oh my God, I’m going to die here.” How did you feel when you first set foot into the Army for all intents and purposes?

2Lt Evans: I was definitely a little taken back—definitely scared. I got on a military flight from Toronto and got on the bus to St. Jean. I had a pretty crusty master corporal check me in. So, that was a great introduction to what to expect for the next seven weeks. So, I was definitely scared, I just tried to kind of keep my mouth and keep my head down. And, seven weeks later I got out of there with a bit of a better idea of what I was doing—but still not a lot.

Capt Orton: I’m going to put you on the spot a little bit. I think we all have experiences where we are in the training environment where we look back, and look at things that we may have done differently. And, even though all soldiers have great ideas on how they are going to change or fix things or do things differently, maybe for the audiences who it’s been a long time since they’ve been through the training system, and they have a certain way in their mind of how things should be done. As maybe a newer person—as a part of the new generation and all that— what do you think we should be doing better as part of our training process?

2Lt Evans: That’s a tough question. Because, like you said, I’ve only seen the training process for the last four years. So, I have no idea of how it has evolved. I think, especially in the moment, when you’re tired and you’re maybe a little anxious and you feel like your staff are being hard on you. And, at the moment you’re like: “they don’t need to be this hard on me, and this is unnecessary.” But, looking back on it, you realize that they actually did need to be hard on me to make me stressed out, because they needed to see if I could perform under that stress. So, I think it’s hard to criticize from the student perspective, because we always want to make things easier on ourselves, and we can’t see the big picture in terms of logistics and checks in the box that they have to have. So I don’t know if I would criticize the training environment. The recruiting I would maybe criticize a little bit. I was recruited by a Navy Officer. And, I asked a lot of questions about the Army that I maybe could have gotten better answers to—that maybe would have prepared me a little better or helped me have a more full understanding of what to expect when I joined. But that’s the only critique I can really lodge.

Capt Orton: It’s funny that you say that because that was actually my exact experience as well. When I walked into the recruiting center, I had a Navy PO that was there—so I asked him also and he was like: “I don’t know much about the Army.” but this is what it is like in the Navy. So, I was just like: “okay that’s fine.” But also, I think a lot of the military experience is also kind of just jumping in not knowing what to expect. That’s why I asked you your opinion just because I wanted to hear, you know, let’s call it the unvarnished truth about how you feel about it. But, also, that in itself is kind of an interesting experience. And, I think a lot of people look back fondly on you know thinking what they knew what they were getting into and then realizing maybe it’s something that’s a little bit different.

2Lt Evans: Yeah, it’s definitely part of the challenge—showing up and not knowing what to expect. And it takes, maybe a little more courage, or commitment to show up not knowing what you’re really getting yourselves into. I think, maybe, on the trade specific side, I probably could have gotten better answers to my trade’s specific questions. Because, I ended up switching trades a couple of years in. And, I don’t know if I would maybe have come in with a different preference list if I had known more about each trade. But I definitely felt like if I had been talking to an Army Officer, I would have been getting different answers.

Capt Orton: Basically, you don’t know what you don’t know. And then down the road, you look at these situations and maybe you re-evaluate how you felt at the time. I can think of a lot of situations in my career where, even for years after having gone through the training system or doing a course of something, I was like: “ah I hate that, it was wrong, it doesn’t make any sense, I don’t know why we did this.” And then, all of a sudden with the benefit of experience and knowledge and having worked in different fields, you’re like: “that’s why that’s that way.” And, it makes so much sense, but it takes you a little while to digest it all. And then have all these other experiences and then you’re like: “yes! Here I am like five years later, and that one guy that told me it had to be this way for this reason. And, I was so mad at him, and he was wrong—and then all of a sudden, no it all makes sense, and now I’m that guy.” And people are like “why are you like this,” and I’m like: “look you’ll figure it out, you’ll know.”

2Lt Evans: Yeah, I think, I mean obviously, I haven’t been around that long, so I can’t attest to what the military was like before. But, just from talking to senior officers and senior NCOs that have been around a lot longer than I have—it seems like the military has gotten a lot better at explaining the why behind a lot of actions. So, maybe in the moment you’re not getting told why you’re doing something. But instructors usually know that if someone comes up to you afterwards and asks to explain why you’re doing something in a certain way, they should be able to provide an answer. And nine times out of ten, they do. Because, that is the new culture of the Army, and that’s the new type of people that we are recruiting. They are people that want full answers and aren’t just being told to do this because I told you so.

Capt Orton: People often think that in the Army you’re kind of, you know, just smash things with a blunt instrument. But, in fact, I think that both officers and NCOs, more or less equally—maybe a little bit more on the officer side—there is a lot of problem solving and analytics there. And, if you want people who are good at that, you have to be okay, to a certain extent, with people that are going to ask why. Because you’re trying to wrap their head around the problem and develop it.

2Lt Evans: Yeah, exactly. I think in every education system. Or at least I found in the Ontario system, we are taught from a very young age how to be a critical thinker. And, that often involves asking questions, and maybe questioning authority when it’s the right time and place, obviously. If there is a time crunch, you’re not going to be asking why you're doing something. But, maybe going up afterwards and asking that question. I think I was definitely surprised on the officer side seeing how much planning and how much forethought went into the smallest of operations. So, you often don’t see from the student side or from the junior leadership side what’s going on at the higher levels. But, even just being at NDHQ for the last couple months and seeing all the different departments and all the different operations. And how far in advance, and how detailed the planning is, you get a much better appreciation for what your future could look like and also what the standard is.

Capt Orton: Speaking of that, so, you’ve gone through your training and now you’ve been temporarily attached to Army Headquarters where you’re working underneath the Deputy Commander. Tell us a little bit about your experience. You’re talking about strategy and stuff like that. But, you know, going from kind of the bottom rung training environment, to knowing full on strategic top of the Army level looking down. What have you seen there? And, does that kind of work with what you’ve learned up until this point?

2Lt Evans: I think, it almost feels like I’m starting all over again in terms of my basis of knowledge. You know, when you graduate from RMC in the fourth year, you kind of feel like you kind of have things at least at RMC figured out. Like you know where to go, or who to ask for certain requests, or certain jobs. And then, showing up at NDHQ you have literally no idea what is going on, and there are all these different acronyms and different people. And they’re all like colonels and generals and you don’t want to go up and ask questions because they are five or six ranks higher than you. But, just sitting in the back of some meetings, or getting to push the next slide in some meetings, you’re getting to learn a lot about the different processes, and the officers have all been really great. Especially the different artillery officers coming up to me and explaining what they do and how it relates to their training and their history. Like, for example, the G1 right now—he used to be the CEO of the Artillery School, so he kind of knew who I was when I showed up, and I’ve gotten to see a lot of what he does in terms of personal management, planning, and statistics, and big picture—which isn’t something I’ve ever really seen before.

Capt Orton: I would say, it’s pretty interesting to have that experience early on. Because, generally, you do your final training and you’re now a for-real soldier. And, you hit the unit, and you’ve gone through this really challenging period where you’ve overcome all these massive obstacles and gone through all these hardships, and built these relationships with these people. And so, in your mind, you are now a soldier—and you’re the top candidate of your class, and then you hit your unit or whatever. And, you’re just like: “oh my God! I don’t know anything.” Or, you felt like you knew everything, and then a month in, you realize wow I am just at the start. Even with all this knowledge and having overcome all these incredible challenges, you’re just at the beginning—it’s just the start.

2Lt Evans: Yeah, and it’s funny because I thought that it was just kind of a 2Lt thing. Like showing up at a new unit or showing up at NDHQ, in my case. But speaking to the colonels, and even the generals in some cases—they’re saying that one of the good or bad things about the Army, depending on how you look at it, is that you’re almost always changing positions. Like you’re never in the same position for more than two to three years in most cases. So, you are going to keep having that feeling of: “what am I doing?” Like quite a few times in your career. Because, you are always being put in new positions. Which is, I think, unique to the Army and it also forces us to be out of our comfort zone and maybe work in more stressful situations but perform at a higher standard.

Capt Orton: Yeah, and I think it also teaches us to be more adaptable. Because if you can function in a weird environment, and then all of a sudden you are working in a different weird environment. And, you just keep doing that over and over again. When you’re actually thrust into a situation, where your ability to adapt to weird—I say weird a lot—but being able to adapt to a different environment is critical to maybe survival, or the survival of your troops, or executing something that matters. You’ve been primed all the way up to that point, to then be able to adapt to a changing environment.

2Lt Evans: Yeah, adaptability for sure. And I think also teamwork. Like if you're showing up in a position where you have no idea what’s going on but maybe your 2IC does or maybe your 3IC does or somebody in the department over. You have to go out of your comfort zone, and go ask them questions. Or go ask the colonel next door questions. And, they are able to provide you with a more whole picture. So, instead of just locking yourself away at your desk because you know exactly what you’re doing, and you don’t need to ask for anyone’s help—it forces you to build that comradery and that connection.

Capt Orton: I think that’s a pretty good note to end on. Is there anything else you want to throw out there before wrapping this up?

2Lt Evans: No, I think I’m good. Thank you.

Capt Orton: You don’t want to say hi to mom or whatever?

2Lt Evans: Oh, I just said hi to her. It’s okay.

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Capt Orton: Okay, right on. Thanks for coming out.

2Lt Evans: Thanks for having me.

Capt Orton: So, that was Second Lieutenant Michelle Evans, and this is Captain Adam Orton for the Canadian Army Podcast. Don’t forget to subscribe, follow us, and also check out our back catalog of episodes. We’ve got about thirteen in the can now. They are worth checking out. Thanks a lot. As usual, stay frosty.

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