Light Tactical Vehicle - LTV (S6 E1)
The threat is not like in Afghanistan from improvised explosive devices buried in the road or in the walls or, maybe small arms or RPGs. Now it's like you have a couple of minutes, if not seconds, to move out of there because you've been identified by a drone, and now there's a missile coming in.
Capt Orton:Hi. I'm Captain Adam Orton with the Canadian Army Podcast. Recently, the Canadian Army has picked up a new vehicle and in classic Army style, we've named it with a bunch of letters. In this case, the LTV, which means Light Tactical Vehicle. Here to tell us why this piece of equipment is something people should be excited about is Major Samir Khelil, who is the project director for the LTV.
Capt Orton:Welcome to the Podcast.
Maj Khelil:Thank you. I'm, very happy to be here. Thanks again for the invitation.
Capt Orton:And talking about new kit. Everybody loves that. I know that I haven't seen too much of this and probably a lot of people who are listening haven't seen it at all. Can you describe what this looks like?
Maj Khelil:What is it? So for somebody, in their house that, close their eyes, they can picture a vehicle based on the Chevy Colorado ZR2 , which is a commercial vehicle. Remove the doors, remove the roof, a roll cage, big tires painted in green, and the most important thing, 9 seats. That's the personal variant. We have the cargo variant with 4 seats, maybe 5 seats, and a cargo area in the back.
Maj Khelil:You can add on top of that, weapon mounts on the side, you can have weapon mounts on top of it, and you can have at some point in the future weapon mounts in the cargo area, and even a weapon turret. So I think this is the best way to describe the vehicle. Commercial based with weapon system, no doors, no roof, and, a lot of off road capability. A lot.
Capt Orton:So that's what we're getting, but why do we actually need this vehicle?
Maj Khelil:This vehicle is being implemented in the system at this time. The purpose is to fill a capability gap. In the system we have different kind of vehicles, but we noticed that we had a gap specifically related to a complex terrain. We needed a vehicle to allow the light forces, soldiers to, be able to bridge the distance in complex terrain. There's one thing to insert from point A to point B on foot, and it's another thing to have a vehicle capable of crossing small obstacles and to being inserted in a certain area with all your energy to, to do the actions, on the objective.
Capt Orton:So maybe before we get into additional details on this, maybe we can quickly talk about what light forces are. Right? What is light infantry?
Maj Khelil:So when we talk about the infantry, the role of the infantry is to close and destroy the enemy by day and by night in all weather conditions. Knowing that, that we have different method of insertion, we can do air mobile insertion, we can do ground insertion. And, when we talk about ground insertion, we notice that the light infantry soldiers, they carry a lot of weight. We talk about ammunition, weapon, water, ration, and sometimes, you know, extra equipment. So that's a lot.
Maj Khelil:The rucksack can, can weigh up to 120 lbs, if not more. I'm not saying that everybody carries that weight, but a lot of people, carry that weight. And the fact is you need all that equipment and food and rations to be able to last in the field for a couple of days, to be independent okay? The less movement you do in the area of operation, the more likely you'll be able to survive, not be detected.
Capt Orton:And so this vehicle is there to support those activities. So what scenarios would you use it in? What what does it get used for?
Maj Khelil:We have 2 variants. We have the 9 seater, variant that can be used to transport troop to a certain point of insertion. They disembark from the vehicle and carry on the rest of the insertion on foot. Okay? You don't want to get the vehicle too close to the enemy, especially, you know, when you do an insertion at 3 in the morning.
Maj Khelil:The engine of the vehicle will give your position away. Sounds travel very far at night. So that's a way of doing things for the 9 seater. We have the cargo variant. We have the 9 seater variant that we can mount some weapons on top of them.
Maj Khelil:They can be used as cutoffs. They can be used to transport the weapon system, dismount the weapon system on specific locations. One thing that is important also to notice for the light infantry forces, it's one thing to get in the field, to get in a area of operation, to conduct your mission, but now you're tired, you're exhausted. Maybe some, people are injured, and now you need to extract from that area. And the last thing you know is to be slow in the extraction phase.
Maj Khelil:So, those vehicle will allow us to get our guys and girls back home, in a safely and timely manner.
Capt Orton:Yeah. And that last bit is truly the most vulnerable section. Absolutely. Maybe you're low on ammo. You're transporting casualties.
Capt Orton:Sometimes on foot, if you don't have additional mobility support, that is one of the most vulnerable phases of an operation. And even if you have a reserve on hand or something to support you, a quick reaction force, you're still in a vulnerable state at that point.
Maj Khelil:Absolutely. And I would add, like, yeah, you can rely on a quick reaction force. We we call it QRF, the reserve, and all that. But the question is, are they gonna show up on time, or is the commander able to commit those reserve to support you? The fact is, when you're doing the extraction from experience, people are looking at the ground, and they can't just wait to get back home and, you know, just take a shower, clean their weapon and you know what I mean?
Capt Orton:So we know why we need the LTV now, but what capabilities does the LTV actually have that don't already exist, like, in the G Wagon, for example?
Maj Khelil:Yeah. We can talk about, like, the G Wagon. No, the G Wagons don't have the same payload. We cannot carry as much kit, more rations and all that to sustain ourselves for more than, like, what, 24 hour.
Maj Khelil:Mhmm. So G Wagon is like what you have, 4 soldiers, weapon system, ammo, and now you have to choose between rations and water, and you have to make some hard choices at some point. The thing here, when you refer to, capability and all that, what that vehicle brings to the table, in a simple sentence, it allow us to sustain ourselves and to be autonomous for a longer period in the field, thus avoiding or trying to avoid detection and minimizing the movement of resupplies.
Capt Orton:Yeah. For those who haven't experienced or witnessed a field resupply, you know, that in itself can be a big challenge. Sometimes really big trucks moving around convoys, they don't necessarily have the ability to go off road. So, again, it's one of those vulnerable states where the structure you're with, whether it's a platoon or a company or whatever, has to kinda take a pause, take a defensive posture, wait for the trucks to show up, hope nobody notices, or at least you can grab the stuff in a timely fashion. And, you know, that's a tricky thing, and it sounds like what you're talking about is now you have more options in terms of routes, locations, speed, time.
Capt Orton:That's kind of the trade off.
Maj Khelil:Yeah. Absolutely. And, one point important to note here is, I don't wanna get, too much philosophical here, but the nature of war is changing right now. Yeah. We don't necessarily own the sky, meaning that there are some, air assets in the skies.
Maj Khelil:That our, adversary used to, identify us, target us, and probably hit us if that's their plan. Or they can just follow you, and you will lead them to a bigger target, such as the rear echelon. So they just need to follow, where that vehicle is going back so they can identify your resupply. So if you cut off the resupply, now we're in a very difficult position in the front. Meaning that right now, that vehicle allows us to survive through mobility.
Maj Khelil:You complete your operation, and you get out of there. The threat is not coming from, like in Afghanistan from IEDs, improvised explosive devices buried in the road or in the walls or whatnot, or, maybe small arms or RPGs. Now it's like you have a couple of minutes, if not seconds, to move out of there because you've been identified by a drone, and now there's a missile coming in. Or maybe the drone will just have explosive on it, and from a top attack here you go. So mobility is very important.
Maj Khelil:We cannot afford to be stuck on a black trail and now have to disembark or cross load all the equipment and all that. And, from what we saw in the, in Calvary training, the ICT conducted in Edmonton lately, that vehicle, it can recover very quickly from being stuck.
Capt Orton:And so therein lies the the nature of warfare in terms of vehicles, which WE've talked about, like, on armored podcast in the past and such, which is it's that trade off of mobility, protection, and firepower. And as technology advances, it's easier to get a little bit more of everything. But at the end of the day, if you want a heavy armor, it's gonna be slower. Or if you want a heavy weapons platform, it may be slower, and you're constantly trading that ability to move quickly and easily through spaces, easily transportable stuff. You know, tanks can't just be picked up by a Chinook or something.
Capt Orton:And you're constantly making decisions, and it's like, what do we have available to us to be able to execute missions?
Maj Khelil:Actually, I saw some comments and I heard some comments left and right about ballistic protection. Mhmm. Yeah. You can have a vehicle fully armored and protected and all that. But in my opinion, for the light infantry forces, this is not suited for them to accomplish their mission.
Maj Khelil:Let's take the example of the Canadian forces. When we see a vehicle, are you gonna engage in adversary or enemy tank with a 9 millimeter? Absolutely not. You're gonna use the proper caliber to address the proper trip. Mhmm.
Maj Khelil:Okay? And you're not gonna shoot a TOW missile on a soft skin. That's an overkill. So you try to use the appropriate weapon on the appropriate target. All that to say that we can improve the vehicle, put heavy doors, armored doors, and all that.
Maj Khelil:The adversary will just increase what kind of weapon they will use. So right now, you guys are using a light tactical vehicle that is fully armored. We're gonna use a heavier missile or a more penetrating missile system. But the thing here is if you're able to move quickly, you're not even there when, you know, they're gonna confirm or, positive ID you. The second part of it is, air mobility, transportability.
Maj Khelil:That is very important. When we know that a lot of operation conducted by the light infantry forces are the insertion is through air assets, air mobile operation, that vehicle needs to be as light as possible in order to be carried by Chinooks. Okay. We don't want to spend a whole day going back and forth with helicopters to insert the platoon. So now we're able to get 2 vehicle in a Chinook.
Maj Khelil:We can sling load the vehicle, and, when we get on the ground, the helicopter lands on the ground. You roll out the vehicle, put your weapon system on top of it, and you're good to go.
Capt Orton:It's funny you bring up the Internet comments watching the videos and just seeing what people have to say about it. Right? And a lot of people have highlighted the, let's call it, cover aspect of it because there's armor which protects you, but even there's, like, protection from the elements and all of that stuff. My first thought was just, like, we have snowmobiles. You're never covered in that.
Capt Orton:You're doing Arctic operations. And then also, if you're dismounted, the weather is still there. Like, what consideration has been given about that?
Maj Khelil:I'm not gonna say that, yeah, we considered every element possible that the universe can throw at us. That is not true. But the cabin enclosure was considered. The heater was considered. Ballistic protection was considered.
Maj Khelil:But we had to factor in other elements, like I mentioned before, for the, ballistic protection, the weight versus, you know, the consequences on the air asset transportability. When we talk about cabins and, head cover, head cover, it will be important in the project, especially to protect the soldiers from the brass, especially if we use, weapons on top of it. For the, cabin enclosure, I'm a little bit mitigated, and from what I heard in Edmonton, that's a nice to have, Okay. Of course. But the positive comment that I heard, it's like, anyway, we're used to do, operations on foot, and now it's just a way to get there quicker and to get back quicker.
Maj Khelil:I agree, but it is already taken into consideration, but that comes with a price. You know? So we have to set priorities of what we're gonna get. Are we gonna get winches or cabin enclosures? Knowing that the light infantry forces are trained and equipped to operate and to sustain themselves in the outdoors in all, weather conditions.
Maj Khelil:So the priority to reinforce the mobility, requirement is to get some winches on those vehicles to be able to recover themselves and not to have, like, 2 vehicle recovering each other and to be static and to be targeted at the same time. So that's one thing. The heater, in my opinion, the industry is not there yet. We saw what they had to propose. I had some questions and concerns, and the heater, thing is not ready.
Maj Khelil:My last point about that is I've been, giving courses in the Arctic. Mhmm. From experience, you know, if you are in a vehicle that is fully heated, okay, and you, dismount from that vehicle in a minus 10 or minus 20 temperature environment, you're gonna get hurt. Yep. So we we had different things to mitigate that.
Maj Khelil:When you get in a vehicle, you open the windows, you remove some clothing, you open up your coat, you remove your toque. So when you disembark, you are fully focused on the mission and not being hurt. So, that's one thing, and, funny thing I remember back in Basic in Gagetown when we were conducting some, you know, basic trainings. Yeah.
Maj Khelil:The instructors, they looked at us and they say, no, you guys are not focused. It's been only 10 minutes, we're patrolling, and everybody is trying to avoid that waterhole. Everything was based on keeping your feet dry, So what they come up with is before every patrol, you see that, pot of water, everybody go through it. Now your feet are wet, now you can focus on the patrol. I'm not saying that being cold is a must or being wet is a must.
Maj Khelil:Okay. We're gonna address that situation, but it is not the priority right now.
Capt Orton:Well, and it's funny. I went through the exact same thing. We loaded trucks fully equipped, like, all our winter gear on Yeah. And then we went out during basic. It was the exact same thing.
Capt Orton:And then you're out there, and now it's minus 30, and you've been sweating loading your gear.
Maj Khelil:Absolutely.
Capt Orton:And everybody learned a really valuable lesson about that, which is, hey, you have to manage your stuff. And that's exactly what you're talking about is staying in the back of a fully heated vehicle. It's great. When you're cold and you need it, it's great.
Maj Khelil:Yep.
Capt Orton:But, also, we learn and live without it. There's people driving around in LAVs that have their full upper bodies outside, driving around Shilo Manitoba probably in the next couple of months in minus 40. They got their gear on. They're alright.
Maj Khelil:Yeah. They're gonna be okay. I can personally, relate to that. I'm gonna speak for me. I was in the back of a LAV fully heated and all that.
Maj Khelil:And when it was time to dismount, you know, dismount dismount and, carry your stuff, I was like, oh, man. I just have another minute. It's so warm in here and all that. So it's the human nature. It's totally normal, but, yep.
Capt Orton:This is the real podcast stuff now. Yeah. It's like, I'm so comfortable back here. Don't wanna do war. Maybe nap.
Capt Orton:So we've got a few of these already. Clearly, we've got a plan for it. It's good to go. What happens next? Do we need to do more trials?
Capt Orton:Like, what's coming down the pipe?
Maj Khelil:You know, I heard some comments about, oh, that vehicle is being tested by the US forces, so we don't need to test it. We can just buy it and all that. It doesn't work like that. Okay. Well, we have our own requirements.
Maj Khelil:We have our own standards. There's the Canadian way of doing business. And, actually, right now, we acquired that vehicle, and, we will test it. We will test it in Trenton for the transportability with some Chinooks. We'll test it in Blleville for the mobility and, to see the limitations, and we'll send a vehicle or 2 in Valcartier, with DRDC to conduct further testing and to see what they have to say about, weapons integration.
Maj Khelil:So, it's going fast, but we need to do, things, the Canadian way.
Capt Orton:So it seems to me based off of kind of a lot of that you've set up to this point is what we know is that we want something that moves fast, has good mobility, and we're getting that platform. But it is yet to be seen what's gonna be attached to the platform. Like, you said, weapons integration is not quite there yet. I'm still looking at accessories, like heaters and stuff like that. So there's some sort of future upgrades coming down the pipe.
Maj Khelil:Maybe I expressed myself the wrong way about, weapons mounts and all that. We, we have swing arms to put, like, C9s , 5.56 caliber, C6. We have mounts for the .50 cal, the heavy machine gun. What is not ready and, what is still in development is the weapons turret, and the mounts for the anti tank guided missile that we will use. Actually, we have, the TOW system, and there's a project to get another missile system.
Maj Khelil:So we need to take a look at it to make sure that our mounts will fit both.
Capt Orton:Right.
Maj Khelil:You know, we don't want to just focus on one system and down the road, another project will deliver a different weapon system that we don't have the mounts. So, yep.
Capt Orton:This seems like in a way by design, somewhat modular that it can be used for all sorts of purposes, sometimes purposes that you might not even have predicted yet. So at the end of the day, considering some kind of future proofing.
Maj Khelil:Yeah. That's correct. And one point to note here is all that is not done in isolation. You know, we're in contact with the Infantry Corps, with the light infantry battalions, with the industry, with the other partners. And the latest comment that was brought to the project team by the RSM of 3 PPCLI is we have way more C6s in the system than the .50 cal.
Maj Khelil:Thus, we need a mount on top of the vehicle that can accommodate both. Right. So now we're looking at the hybrid weapons mount, on top of it. You know, we're very open to feedback, comments, and all that because we don't have all the knowledge of the universe.
Capt Orton:Yeah. It would be nice if we did. So who's getting this? Let's talk about who's actually getting these vehicles.
Maj Khelil:Yeah. So the first phase for LTV is dedicated for Op REASSURANCE, up to a 108 tactical, vehicles. The main focus, the main goal that we, achieved to have the vehicle in Latvia ready to go for the big NATO exercise that will be conducted a little bit later this fall. And the phase 2, we intend to acquire up to 222 vehicles plus 33 trailers that will be distributed across, the light infantry battalions.
Capt Orton:So what's the anticipated delivery date for units to actually receive these to use them outside of, you know, being in Latvia?
Maj Khelil:It's gonna take a couple of years. I just want to manage the expectations because right now, we are in the process of finishing trials, collecting data, and, having feedback given to us to communicate those feedback to the industry and to see exactly what we want. And, it's not gonna happen overnight to get those improvements done.
Capt Orton:Well, honestly, really interesting in seeing what happens next with all of that. Sounds like some cool trials are happening, and people are going to do some really neat stuff with it in Latvia. And, looking forward to seeing how it all goes out.
Capt Orton:Thanks so much for taking the time to talk to us about it.
Maj Khelil:Yep. Thank you for, your interest in the project.
Capt Orton:That was Major Samir Khalil, who is the project director for the LTV, and I am Captain Orton for the Canadian Army Podcast. Orton out.