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Mrs. Sampson Dawe: Our soldiers, and our service men and women don’t need pity; they need to be appreciated.

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Captain Adam Orton: Hi! This is Captain Orton from the Canadian Army Podcast. Today, we are going to be talking about Silver Cross Mothers. For those that don’t know, the Silver Cross, or the Memorial Cross, as it’s also known as, is awarded to mothers and widows of Canadian soldiers who died in act of duty—or who’s death was attributed to such duties. Joining us today from the Kingston area is Mrs. Samson Dawe, who is the 2019 National Silver Cross Mother. Good day, ma’am.

Mrs. Dawe: Good day to you.

Capt Orton: So, for starters, perhaps tell us a little bit about yourself and your family.

Mrs. Dawe: Well, my family has a background, if you wish, in the military. More than a background—they are fully immersed in the military. My husband is a retired military engineer, and I have four sons who all went through RMC. Except the oldest one, who ultimately got two masters degrees from RMC—so everybody has a military background. One is in Ottawa, and he is a commanding officer of the special forces. The other one, Philip, is in Vancouver as a surgeon—a trauma surgeon, but he’s military. The third one, James, served for five years after his graduation, and now works for an American company. But, he also had a tour in Bosnia and other places. And, tragically, we lost our youngest son, Matthew, Captain Matthew Dawe, who was killed in action in July of 2007. So, I know well what it means to be a member of a military community. My husband was in the Forces for over forty years when he retired. And please don’t ask me how many moves we had—I don’t know. Many, many moves. And, of course it adds flavour to a family, that’s who we are. And, we have a lot of other interests, too. But you can’t take away the military background that we have.

Capt Orton: Yeah, of course. And, that is just an incredible family story. Four sons, all in the military, plus your husband.

Mrs. Dawe: I don’t know who followed whom. But they kind of—even the youngest, Matthew— he wasn’t going to go to Military College. He’s like: “there’s no way I’m going to Military College.” We said “fine, whatever you want to do, Matthew; you’re free to do whatever you want.” And, his dad said: “well, you might apply just in case. If you get it, you don’t have to go. That’s up to you.” And, he had applied to three other universities. And, when the answer came back saying that he was accepted at RMC, he went: “yes!” So, I think he really wanted to go there. But I think he was afraid of being disappointed if he didn’t make it, he would be letting down his brothers. But, anyway, that’s how it came about, you know. Just one followed the other. And, that’s how it happened.

Capt Orton: Wow.

Mrs. Dawe: I imagine that they were pretty proud of their dad. Otherwise, they wouldn’t have done that—would they?

Capt Orton: Yeah, of course. So, you’re the 2019 National Silver Cross Mother. What does that mean? What duties does that entail?

Mrs. Dawe: Well, first of all, a little history, or clarification about the Silver Cross Mothers. All the mothers who lost a son or a daughter in a mission receive a Silver Cross. So, we are all Silver Cross Mothers. So, what I’ve been chosen to do this year is to be the National Silver Cross Mother. And, there is only one that is chosen every year. So, I was asked to do that. I’m not sure what the selection process is—I have no idea—but, anyway, they ask you if you would kindly do that. I was a bit hesitant at first, because it implies opening your private life to a whole lot of people. And, it can mean emotional times, too. It means you have to relive all of those moments that you never forget. But you don’t necessarily want to talk about that at length with everybody listening to you.

But, I thought that maybe I could help out the other mothers by telling them that they weren’t alone. And, that, as tragic as it is, you want to be proud of your child. He or she did what she wanted to do, knowing very well the dangers of it, and they decided to do it anyway. And, what would they say if that happened? You know, I still—I could hear my son Matthew say: “mom, come on. You’ve got to carry on. You can’t be moping about. You just have to”—and then I said: “I have to start enjoying life, enjoying the things that he can no longer enjoy.” And that doesn’t mean you just go around being merry all the time. But, you try to be positive for the ones around you—my children, my grandchildren, and in memory of my dear Matthew that I miss every day.

Capt Orton: That’s a really powerful message.

Mrs. Dawe: Thank you, thank you. That’s what being the National Silver Cross Mother means. That means that there are a lot more things that you expect when you accept. I thought that I would lay a wreath in Ottawa and that would be the end of that. But there have been—especially last Fall when they saw it—I had interview after interview after interview after interview. So, I’m kind of getting used to it now. So, but not only that. Going to one ceremony after another and again being asked questions that even if you mention that you didn’t want those questions to be asked. Sometimes people will kind of forget, I think—or, maybe, are a bit insensitive and they will ask anyway. Like, for example: “describe how you learned how your son was killed.” Do you think I want to do that? No. I’m not going to go through that for your agreement, or you know. So, those were things that had a bit of a negative impact.

But, put that aside. And all the experience of meeting all the veterans—the incredible experience of laying a wreath in Ottawa. And, observing the thousands of civilians, and veterans—young and old—standing there for hours in the freezing cold. I was only there for about an hour and I thought it was so cold. I looked like a mission man with my coat. It was freezing. But I kept thinking, you know, I was so proud of all those people showing up and expressing their gratitude for all the soldiers and what they do—day in, day out. So that was a very positive thing. And, I also had the great opportunity to go to Italy for the commemoration ceremony of the Italian campaign. So, I met the veterans from that campaign who were from 93 to 100 years old. So, they were extraordinary men—and brave, and humble, and funny, and a great sense of humour. And, just, it was a wonderful, wonderful experience. And, to be able to see what they physically went through—you know, the terrain there in Italy is incredible. They were just like sitting ducks at the bottom. And the German forces were up on each side, but they went anyway. They just carried on. So, it was really an extraordinary experience. So, of course, I will always cherish those things. And visiting different cemeteries in Europe, as well, when I was there. So, it was really a learning and a very touching experience.

Capt Orton: It’s interesting that you would say that, that way as well. Because if I look at my experiences in France, it very much mirrors that where you have a lot of the much older veterans now, and even the people of France—and you’re looking at the terrain, and you're kind of reliving those moments with them. And, it can be a really profound experience to hear the people who maybe have been there, or at least a previous generation have been there and have gone through all these challenges. Talking about how they feel about what happened there.

Mrs. Dawe: Yes. It is an experience I think more Canadians should have. The opportunity to see and to realize how much appreciation there is in those countries. You know, you go to Holland, Italy, or any of those places—they are so proud and so grateful.

Capt Orton: You spoke a little bit about opening yourself up to people as the National Silver Cross Mother. And also, you know, after hearing about your family history, you’ve gone through pretty much as a person who’s not in the Forces could go through with having sons going to war, and a husband that’s also been in the military, and having lost family members. What would you tell the families of serving soldiers, or somebody who is considering serving—what would you say to them?

Mrs. Dawe: I would say, certainly don’t tell them not to do it. Okay? To me, being in the Forces is a noble profession. You go there ready to serve regardless of what you’re asked to do. It’s also a lot of young men and women going there for the adventure. And, I’m sure you’ve experienced, and you’ve been challenged to do things you never thought that you could do. And then you do them and you’re so proud. But more than that, I think it’s the fact that they accept to put their lives on the line to defend whoever is asking for it. Whether it’s in those far away missions, or at home. You know, they are asked to intervene in areas like with the pandemic now. They went to work in old age homes to help. And, they did an excellent job. You know, everybody was so impressed—civilians, they were all amazed with what the soldiers did. Whether it’s a flood, forest fire, rescue at sea—they are always there whenever something is needed. Important! So, they should be proud. And, furthermore, you can’t tell an adult child not to do something if they have their heart set on it. Because they will do it anyway. And, if they feel your approval, then they will do it with some relief and pride. They won’t feel that their parents are on their back, you know, kind of holding them back. You can’t do that to a person. Let them go freely to their destination and hopefully they won’t get hurt. But, you know, they could get hurt also crossing the road, or as a fireman, or as a medic, or any other type of profession. So, no, I certainly would never tell them not to do it.

Capt Orton: It’s funny. Because some of the things you said reminded me of some of what I’ve talked to my mom about when I came back from Afghanistan. And it was basically the same thing. She was like: “I was pretty worried about it, but at the same time I knew I couldn’t tell you not to go. Because you are going to do whatever you want anyways.” And, so, you know, she kind of says exactly that.

Mrs. Dawe: Well, there you go. Wise words.

Capt Orton: Moms know best, for sure.

Mrs. Dawe: That’s right.

Capt Orton: Speaking of these missions and stuff, I understand you’re also involved with some charity work with women’s education in Afghanistan. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Mrs. Sampson Dawe: Sure. The organization, initially, was called Canadian’s Women for Women in Afghanistan. And it is called that in all the other sectors. But, here in Kingston, we have some men also who are involved. So, we decided to shorten it to Canadians for Women in Afghanistan. And, the purpose of the organisation is to help the education of women and girls in Afghanistan. And, that has been supporting a school, an orphanage, and teaching. They are making real progress. There are thirty chapters across the country—and it’s a fundraising activity. But it is very successful in providing, there are so many more girls and women in school now. And, they have virtual school as well, online. We send books, libraries—like, we have one particular school in Kabul and that’s for girls and women who are disadvantaged, who otherwise couldn’t go to school. So, we provide uniforms, we provide fuel for warming up the school, and food, and books, and teachers, and everything. So, you know, a lot of those girls have gone on to go to University. So, it is really important. And, to me, I think as a mother of somebody who went there and the one who did not come back. I think it makes me feel better, and I think it should make the veterans feel better, too. To know that all the work that they did there wasn’t in vain. You know, the mission—they are not there anymore, but the mission continues. And, furthermore, if the military had not been there to start with, we wouldn’t have been able to go in and help. But, now, because of that, you know they opened the road for us, and we were able to do those things. And we will continue to do that. It is a great organization. And, all of the funds go to—well now we have a small proportion of the money going too, because there is an office in Kabul, so we have to pay a driver, a director of the programs right on the grounds there. But, I mean it’s minimum—it is a very small proportion of the funds. Otherwise, everything else goes directly for the schools, and the students, and the teachers.

Capt Orton: I really like your message that you’re saying—not the military mission, but improvements continue when you come back. And sometimes, you know, you come back from deployment and you just want to get home. And then, you kind of go through your reintegration into society. And then, the next mission is on—whatever that is, whether that’s training or preparing for the next thing—and, even though you think about things, where you’ve been and what you’ve done, sometimes it falls off your radar, and you’re just focused on what’s next. And, I find it really encouraging that you’re talking about, you know, how there are still follow on effects after all of this time. Where things are getting better.

Mrs. Dawe: Yeah. And I don’t say that lightly. I mean the members of the organization in Kabul have said that many times over. They are very, very grateful for what the military did. And as I said, they know that they wouldn’t have been able to survive if it hadn’t been for our soldiers going there and helping. So, take that and you know, believe in that.

Capt Orton: Speaking of remembering the things that we’ve done, as we know, every November, that’s when Remembrance Day is and Veterans week—what should Canadians be reflecting on as we approach that time frame? And, when they are there, what should they be thinking about? What do you think they should be thinking about?

Mrs. Sampson Dawe: Well, I think just the fact that they are there tells us they do appreciate what the military men and women did. And the veterans, and so on. But, as a National Silver Cross Mother, I was asked to lay a wreath on November 11th. And, I was so impressed by the number of people who were there. I was told that there were close to 3,000 people there. And, it was so cold. And there were young ones, older ones, old veterans with their blankets, others that were just standing there for hours. Well, doesn’t that tell you that people care? It certainly did to me. I had never attended a ceremony in Ottawa. I’ve attended—I always do here in Kingston. But to see such a large number impressed me beyond imagination. I was really touched by that. So, the fact that they are there, they don’t need to be told. They’re there because they appreciate it, and they want to say thank you to the veterans and so on.

And, I think we are very fortunate to live in a country like Canada, so we never had any conflicts right here. But, if you go to other countries, like in France, or Holland, or Italy. And, you visit the cemeteries there, or you attend any kind of ceremonies, people are ever so grateful. And, I can appreciate that you know. If you’ve never lived through a war, you don’t really know what that means on a day-to-day basis. And, for Canadians, you know, of course, it’s not something that is in the back of our minds all the time. But, when November comes, and Remembrance Day comes, at least take the time to reflect and say “thank you” to all the people who have been there—particularly, the families of the ones who didn’t come back. But, show your appreciation. Our soldiers, and our servicemen and women don’t need pity—they need to be appreciated. You know, and they should be proud. They don’t need to and they don’t want pity either. They chose to do what they did; they did it bravely. Some of them suffered psychologically as well as physically, and all kinds of harms that come with war. But, don’t associate soldiers with wanting to go to war. Nobody wants war. But we need to have soldiers to help us get through it when it happens.

Capt Orton: I can tell that you’re extremely passionate about this subject, too. And, a lot of the things that you say too really resonate with just my experience with my peers and my family. So, I just wanted to say thank you for taking the time to talk about all of this stuff. Because, I know, it can’t always be easy—and, like you said, you know, opening yourself up to all of this, emotional movement can’t be easy. So, I just wanted to say thank you for taking the time to talk to us about it.

Mrs. Dawe: You’re very welcome; it was my pleasure.

Capt Orton: Is there anything else you want to add before we wrap things up?

Mrs. Dawe: No, I think we’re done, Adam.

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Mrs. Dawe: No, but thank you. And good luck to you.

Capt Orton: Thank you, ma’am. So that was Mrs. Sampson Dawe speaking to us as the 2019 National Silver Cross Mother. This is the Canadian Army Podcast. As usual, don’t forget to subscribe and follow us. And follow the Canadian Army on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, and Twitter. Stay frosty, guys.

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