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Captain Pierre-Alexandre Dufour: It’s been called the hardest course the Canadian Army has to offer. And it’s all the cool things that you wish you would do when you joined the army.

Captain Adam Orton: Hi! I’m Captain Adam Orton with the Canadian Army Podcast! We’re on location in Trenton at the Canadian Army Advanced Warfare Centre—or CAAWC, which is the centre of excellence for a number of specialized Army courses. The Patrol Pathfinder Course is the ultimate test for a Canadian soldier. And here with me to explain everything a Patrol Pathfinder is Captain Pierre-Alexandre Dufour from the 3rd Battalion, Royal 22e Régiment. And he was also an instructor on the course in 2021. Welcome to the podcast.

Capt Dufour: Hey, thanks for having me.

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Capt Orton: So let’s talk about what a Pathfinder is. What’s a Pathfinder?

Capt Dufour: A Patrol Pathfinder are medium, long-range reconnaissance patrollers. They’re specialized in insertion and extraction. Typically, a Patrol Pathfinder would be sent in front of a mechanized brigade—further ahead of where normally they could reach. Typically the max range is a combat radius of a CC-130—so about 600 kilometers would be the max range—to go in, do reconnaissance, prepare, whatever it is: drop zones, landing zones, beach zones, air strips, so that they can insert forces or bring in equipment, bring in materials, and help the newly arrived organization to get the layout of the ground and move to their objective.

Capt Orton: Basically, it’s kind of where it all begins. Right? That’s really how it starts. They’re there. And they’re setting things up for the follow-on force.

Capt Dufour: Yeah, it’s either the start or, if a commander is looking at taking a bound in front, that commander would call us in and we would be setting up all the conditions necessary for that commander to move their troops forward.

Capt Orton: So you’re kind of like leapfrogging ahead, just setting those conditions for the force that’s going to—you know, when we talked about follow-on forces, like, there’s a bunch of army people, the Pathfinders, go in, set it up. The big guns show up and then you jump ahead and then do it again.

Capt Dufour: Exactly.

Capt Orton: Can you just describe a couple of methods of insertion if you need to insert? What are some of the things you do?

Capt Dufour: Yeah, so we can repel out of a helicopter, down the cliff. We could insert from parachuting from any airframe. We can swim out of any ships—whether it be at sea or near the shore, in and out of a submarine. Basically, anything that can move us closer to us walking we can use.

Capt Orton: So, who becomes a Pathfinder? Like, what kind of people become a Pathfinder?

Capt Dufour: Typically, it’s going to be infanteers that come from a reconnaissance background. Typically, it’s going to be people that are already in reconnaissance platoon. But there are other trades that have gone on the course and that have been successful. So there are a couple of combat engineers that are also qualified.

Capt Orton: How do those trades all kind of come together?

Capt Dufour: In the concept of a pathfinder grouping, there would be all of those enablers that would come with that detachment up to a platoon. So, you would have combat engineers, FOO/JTAC, all of the artillery pieces that would be brought in—so those would all be grouped in together.

Capt Orton: Speaking of that grouping, as it existed, it’s kind of a current incarnation, what does that look like? Like, what do Pathfinders look like right now? Are they kind of distributed throughout units? Or do they have their own centralized organizations? What does that look like?

Capt Dufour: Conceptually and doctrinally, they would be either brigade or a division asset. But no formal organization, grouping them exists. So they’re primarily found in reconnaissance platoons inside an infantry battalion. Or here at CAAWC, at the Patrol Pathfinder cell to help and push the program forward.

Capt Orton: So, basically, you know, developing the capability.

Capt Dufour: Yeah, and keeping it relevant. So we just rewrote the qualification standard for the course. So that’s the kind of work that goes on here at the cell; we give the course, and we ensure that the capability remains relevant for the Canadian Army. And we keep pace with the change that we see on modern battlefields.

Capt Orton: So it’s an interesting point, because like, you know, from what I understand from the role of Patrol Pathfinders, to me anyways, it seems like it's something that wouldn’t change a lot, because, you know, you’re moving forward, and you’re establishing beachheads or, you know, landing strips or whatever. What needs to be modernized to keep it relevant?

Capt Dufour: So, a big part of the course of the qualification is also joint mission planning. So, modernizing also means including all of the other capabilities or the other equipment that, for example, all the unmanned aerial systems that are available inside of the Army or the Air Force or the Navy—new type of aircraft, new type of offshore patrol vessels that are launched by the RCN or the Navy is something that we are looking at getting our hands on, work with it and develop tactics and procedure with them. So that’s all of the kind of work that goes on when no courses are running here.

Capt Orton: So, I have friends that are Pathfinders. Right? And have a kind of a general idea of what Pathfinders do. But as I was preparing for this podcast, I was looking at the training plan in there, and it’s a 400 page document. It’s incredible the scope of what’s in there. Like you do everything on this course. And this is like a full spectrum test for everything that is Army.

Capt Dufour: Yeah. And it’s all the cool things that you wished you would do when you joined the Army. So you do fast-roping, rappelling, you jump from helicopters, you swim with the Navy, you go out in the ocean. Really, it’s all that I wanted to do when I joined and I thought that you do day in day out in the Army—that’s kind of what that course makes you do.

Capt Orton: What does that training look like then?

Capt Dufour: The course is twelve weeks long. It’s divided into roughly seven phases. The first one is an entry test, the long distance march. So we’re going to test the candidates on their physical fitness, their endurance. Mostly with an over 20 kilometre, 80 pound rucksack, Full Fighting Order march. From there, they’ll go into the navigation phase where they’ll learn the ability to go from unknown to known—so be dropped somewhere, triangulate their position, and get to a rendez-vous point, day and night for tens of kilometers. From there, we’re gonna go into tactical procedures and operating procedures. So how Pathfinders operate at that detachment section and platoon level so that we have a standardized way of operating on the course. Then we’ll go into a series of survival escapes, resistance, and evasion with the Conduct After Capture School, which will teach the Pathfinders the skills necessary should they be stranded behind enemy lines. So there is a blue phase also that either happens in the East Coast or West Coast of Canada where the candidates will be taught how to mission plan and operate out of Navy platform, whether it’s ship or small craft operate in a saltwater environment with different types of shorelines, beaches or cliffs. And then this will culminate with the final training exercise that happens at different training areas and off training areas in Canada, which brings together all that has been learned. So, will include insertion via helicopter rappelling, parachuting with aircraft, yellow casting with ship—whether it be from the Navy, the Coast Guard, interagency with some law enforcement agency. So really a complete review of all that has been taught to the candidates, and now they’re being assessed on their ability to lead a section of Pathfinder and to be the 2IC at that section.

Capt Orton: So, when you’re saying on training area and off training areas, this is everywhere. Right? Like all across Canada?

Capt Dufour: Yeah. So for example, the last course, we were in the 2 Div Training Centre in Valcartier, and from there we launched at l’Isle-aux-Coudres in St. Lawrence River to local airports outside the bays. So we try to mix it up so that there’s more planning and ongoing routes are longer. Not all missions come with the assets that you’re provided. Sometimes you have a request that makes people puzzled and makes their ability to plan complex missions more,... [hesitation]

Capt Orton: Robust.

Capt Dufour: More robust, yeah. And we’re better able to assess if they have grasped all that has been shown to them.

Capt Orton: Yeah. And it’s worth mentioning, you know—especially for people who might not be aware of it, especially if you’ve been attached to a specific base or training area for an extended period of time—like, you eventually get to know that place really well. So, you know, if you drop somebody off in the middle of nowhere, and you’re just like, yeah, trying to figure out where you are like: “Oh, yeah, we’re just by the Delta tower” or whatever. Then you just walk back. So that’s probably one of the reasons why you guys are going off training. Right?

Capt Dufour: Exactly, yeah, exactly. And then also involves getting realism. So training areas that we have on base usually are geared towards a special purpose and include ranges and things like that. So that’s why going outside the base gives you different fields—like there are going to be actual civilians, there are going to be cars, but there’s a whole wide world outside the training area that is a lot more realistic when you’re actually in it. So it makes the planning and the executing of those training missions as close as possible to a real scenario.

Capt Orton: The intensity of training has got to be pretty high throughout.

Capt Dufour: Yeah, it’s high. It takes a lot of energy. But we have a good program for recuperation. We have a good program with medics that follows throughout to treat any problem. We have a physiotherapist from PSP that follows the course throughout. We’re followed by their research human performance cell to help us bring up the passing rate and better prepare future candidates on the course so that they have a better chance of being successful.

Capt Orton: So for people who’ve done a lot of military courses, you usually don’t see that kind of support structure implemented on the back end like. Usually, they have some medics and injuries are always a pretty big hazard, especially on some of the more intense courses. It goes without saying that we always have medical support and all that. But, when you talk about having physio on staff and people analyzing human performance, why is Pathfinder the course that gets that kind of support?

Capt Dufour: It has a lot of resources but the course is an advanced course; it’s an important capability. And when you ask what we ask of soldiers when they come on the course, I think it’s due to them that they have a support mechanism and that they see that we take it seriously here at the school. Every soldier that comes on the course—we encourage everybody to go through a pre course that is run by the light battalions. So having PSP follow those courses and give us feedback helps us make those pre-courses better. They have a training package before coming to the course that we also developed with them. So it’s all that support and all of that preparation that we’re trying to make better so that we can hopefully have a better success rate. And have more people want to come on the course.

Capt Orton: So, I guess we can't really talk about this without talking about PSP now, since you brought it up. So what do they do?

Capt Dufour: For everybody that is currently serving, you will know your PSP to be fitness people. They’re the gym people. They’ll make your program, or they will run your physical fitness session in the morning for the Pathfinder program. They’re out of Ottawa—the Human Performance Cell; they’re specialist doctors and kinesiologists. They work with the latest research in human performance to ensure that we get the best program and that we understand all the matrix and the data that is applicable to the course and what we ask of Pathfinders so that we can make change to how we run the course, what’s asked of the people, the food that is served, the rest that’s given, the equipment that’s used. So, for us, they do a lot more than just plan our morning physical session.

Capt Orton: It may be surprising to a lot of people in the military out there that it’s actually that elaborate. But even like, like I got a chance to participate in some of the trials when they were developing some of the new Combat Force Tests and stuff like that. And you got doctors and all sorts of analytics. So, for most people in the military—you know, you think PSP staff, you think of people who are in the gym who are there to help you with your training plans and stuff like that. But there’s a lot happening in the background with that organization.

Capt Dufour: Yeah, when I went through the course in 2017, we had weekly blood draw, we were wearing fitness monitors on all of our long march or our navigation and things like that, to see how much calories was expended, what’s the toll that was taking them, what the heart rate look like—how hydrated, dehydrated you were. So they have to have really good knowledge and metrics on all the parts of the course so that we can develop our program before, but also the support through the course to make sure that injuries and attrition are held to a minimum for the Patrol Pathfinder Course.

Capt Adam Orton: Yeah, I mean, obviously it’s a super difficult course. What’s the pass rate like?

Capt Dufour: So the attrition rate is about 60 percent—mainly due to failure. So people that don’t grasp concepts or are not able to display what is looked for to pass the assessments. Another significant part is injuries.

Capt Adam Orton: Yeah, of course.

Capt Dufour: Again, to what comes for all that support mechanism and all of those—we did a lot of head scratching to try to reduce that to the maximum.

Capt Orton: I mean, it’s hard. Right? Because, I mean, this is common throughout military courses. It’s like, listen, if you sprain your ankle or tear your muscle or break a leg—that’s like weeks, if not months.

Capt Dufour: Yeah.

Capt Adam Orton: And there’s, no, you can’t just carry on.

Capt Dufour: And it’s a lot easier to sprained your ankle with one hundred pounds on your back.

Capt Orton: Yeah, exactly. The military is filled with stories of people who, like, broke a toe and pushed through. But when the pressure is so high, and there’s so much complexity—and it’s like having that extra pressure of an injury that may get worse and worse.
You can’t blame people for not being able to do it.

Capt Dufour: No. And also, there’s a leadership responsibility to identify—people that, even though they want to keep pushing on, you know, will only be a detriment to their peers for the rest of the course and that might get more seriously injured if they try to keep on with the program and keep on with the dangerous activities like rappelling and things like that. So it’s
also leadership responsibility sometimes to go and see the people and say: “Hey, you could come back next year, if you fix this. But you’ll be out of the Army if you like, blow your knee out forever.”

Capt Orton: That’s a challenge with iron will. Right? It’s like if you can push through anything—even if you’re the toughest, most baddest person. You know what they say—it’s like, what is it? Pain is just weakness leaving the body.

Capt Dufour: Yeah, sometimes pain is also an alarm signal.

Capt Orton: That’s right!

Capt Dufour: That you need to rest and hopefully come back.

Capt Orton: So, why is this capability, you know, such a specialized role? I did a quick check; I think there’s like a couple hundred Pathfinders.

Capt Dufour: Yeah, number 358. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, everybody’s got their number. Yeah, so why is this such a small capability if it's such a broad spectrum skill set?

Capt Dufour: It’s just by the nature of how hard it is to do. It’s been called the hardest course the Canadian Army has to offer. It’s a long course, the prerequisite makes it so that the number of people that can apply every year is fairly small. And it takes a very mentally fit and physically fit soldier with a lot of leadership abilities to be able to execute all that is asked and to do that mission planning with the pilots, with the captains of ships, with a broad range of enablers.

Capt Orton: So you have to be good at everything, basically.

Capt Dufour: Or be very fast to learn.

Capt Orton: Yeah!

Capt Dufour: To learn things, yeah.

Capt Orton: So what’s maybe some of the hardest parts of the course?

Capt Dufour: Well, definitely, for me, the load. Rucksacks are always around one-hundred pounds. And that’s when they’re dry, and then you go in the water, and then you come out, and then they’re one hundred and twenty pounds. And you got to carry that for twelve hours at a time. So that physically is hard. Mentally, it’s hard because the missions are complex. It involves a lot of moving parts—a lot of outside agencies. On the course, we go with the Coast Guard. So a lot of people that are of a different culture on how they conduct their operation. So you have to be able to talk to them, even though it’s your seven days in the field, and you’re kind of tired, and it’s the first time you’re talking to that pilot. So you still have to make your mission happen even though you’re tired.

Capt Orton: I think anybody who’s interested in the military knows that, at least to a certain extent, regardless, especially in Combat Arms, but pretty much everybody—let’s be real. There’s always that mental challenge. Right? Everybody goes through at least one phase in their career where they haven’t slept for days and they have to make complex decisions and planning. But again, it seems like Pathfinder just pushes it to the extreme. What’s some of the—I’ll call them survival tips? Like what are some of the things that you learned through that to keep a sharp mental edge when it’s on day seven, and now you’re talking to some Navy people, and you don’t really know how to talk Navy because they have their own way of doing business. And you have to do this elaborate, complex plan and it involves multiple organizations. And everything rests on you, or else the whole thing falls apart. How do you stay sharp from that?

Capt Dufour: You rely on your team. So, everything’s teamwork. You bring in the people that have the strength that you’re lacking at that specific moment. So, you take on your teammates with you when you go and do your planification so that they remember what you don’t. And they can give you pointers for what you missed, or have good ideas. So it’s really about mission first, making the mission a success. And everybody has a role in that. Ultimately, it’s on everybody to succeed.

Capt Orton: How does this affect your career? Like, how being a Pathfinder affects your career path?

Capt Dufour: So if you’re an officer and you do this early in your career, you’re likely to get a chance to be a Reconnaissance Platoon Commander. If you’re a non-commissioned member of the Infantry, you’re likely to be also called to the Reconnaissance Platoon and to be there for a longer period because it’s considered an advanced course. And then after that, you can be back here at CAAWC either at the cell. You’ll have the opportunity to specialize, also, in parachuting. And that branch also does a whole career path. If people are interested in that. But that's how it opens doors.

And as far as just general career—it’s just you’re going to be relied on a lot more by both your subordinate and your superior just because that qualification shows that you have broader experience in planning, joint operations, you have physical endurance. So all those qualities that come inherent with having the qualifications are going to be expected of you. You might find yourself with more work. Like, I heard: “Good work only brings you more work.” This is very true.

Capt Orton: But in theory, work that you like. Right? Because you’re specialized in that.

Capt Dufour: Yeah, obviously. Yeah.

Capt Orton: Yeah, that’s good. So let’s wrap this podcast up in style. Do you have a good Pathfinder story you want to tell people?

Capt Dufour: One of the good stories? Well, to reflect things that are outside of the scope of normal Army Training. So, one of the missions that was assigned to do the planning took place in a Navy frigate. And they were doing some kind of—I don’t know if it was torpedo avoidance or whatever, we’re doing drills where they were banking the ship left and right very hard. And so it was pretty funny seeing us all line dancing in the room trying to do like map model pointing and moving our little little pieces on a map model while everybody was getting bounced around. So, that was an experience I didn’t think I would have in the Army.

Capt Orton: Yeah, and it talks about, you know, different cultures that are unexpected. Right? Like, to the Navy people that’s just like Tuesday. And you’re just like, I can’t—this doesn’t work for me.

Capt Dufour: It was a whole room full of people without Navy legs. You could see that easily.

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Capt Orton: That’s good. Well, thanks for taking the time to tell us about the world of Pathfinders.

Capt Dufour: Yeah, thank you for having me.

Capt Adam Orton: That was Captain Pierre-Alexandre Dufour from the 3rd Battalion au Royal 22e Régiment. We’re working on season four right now.

If you have any ideas of things you want to hear about, don’t hesitate to write to us; the email address is in the show notes. I’m Captain Adam Orton for the Canadian Army Podcast. Orton out.

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