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Lieutenant-Colonel Darryn Gray: It’s such an exhilarating feeling when you’re whipping across that countryside, going 140 kilometres an hour, and firing that main gun at a target to your front—or having multiple tanks all firing at the same time while you’re going cross country. It’s just amazing.

Captain Adam Orton: Hi, I’m Captain Adam Orton with the Canadian Army Podcast.

I could probably make a crayon drawing of a tank and post it on the Army Instagram or Facebook account and I’ll probably get a pile of likes. People love tanks, they’re fascinated with them, and so am I. Here to talk to us about tanks is Lieutenant-Colonel Darryn Gray, Commanding Officer of the Lord Strathcona’s Horse—Royal Canadians—a unit based in Edmonton. Welcome to the podcast!

LCol Gray: Thanks, Adam. It’s great to be here.

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Capt Orton: So, you know, we post on social media, people love tanks, it always comes up in army conversations. Why are tanks cool?

LCol Gray: Tanks are amazing. It’s a beast of a weapon system. The troops love being employed on it. When you think of a form of military organization, you think of infantry and you think of tanks. And it’s just such an amazing feeling operating on that system and providing that firepower downrange. It’s just amazing.

Capt Orton: You know, a lot of people will think of a giant thing of metal with a big gun on top of it: that’s a tank. And you know, army people are just like: “No, that’s a LAV,” or, you know. What is the tank?

LCol Gray: So, a tank, you know, the tanks that we have are the Leopard 2 tanks. It’s a tracked vehicle. It has 120 millimetre cannon, smoothbore cannon, and it’s able to provide firepower, mobility, security to our forces on the ground. Often confused with a LAV—a Light Armoured Vehicle—which is wheel-based with eight wheels. For those with the untrained eye would see that as a tank, but typically, tanks are much bigger and provide a lot more firepower to the battlefield.

Capt Orton: And there’s a lot of variety of tanks as well. So you got, what I would call, you know, your regular tank. It’s just like you said, tracks, big gun—can you explain kind of the different flavours of tank? How they're used? Like, how does that work?

LCol Gray: Sure, there’s varying sizes of tanks as well. So you can have a lighter tank. So the Americans are using another version of a tank with a lighter capacity more as an infantry support vehicle. They have a medium tank; so our Leopard 1 was more of a medium tank—less heavy, but it still had a 105 millimetre cannon, as well as, you know, the overall protection for the crew. But the new Leopard 2 that we’re using is more of a main battle tank, a heavier tank, 60 plus tons, and is able to provide 120 millimetre firepower. So, varying roles in these tanks. The Americans also used Sheridan tanks, where they launch them out of aircraft with the air mobile forces. We don’t have those in the Canadian Forces inventory; however, we’re primarily fixed on the Leopard 2 main battle tank.

Capt Orton: So what’s their functional purpose on the battlefield? Like, obviously, big guns good—but, you know, what do they do and how do they integrate with the other pieces that are moving around there?

LCol Gray: So, historically speaking, tanks were created in and around the First World War, to support infantry in fighting through the trenches, and no man’s land. Canadian forces didn’t have them at that particular time; ours were developed in the Second World War and often used in close cooperation with the infantry. We can cross open country relatively fast with the infantry following and when you get to your objective, you destroy the large fixtures or other tanks on the objective and allow the infantry to move in and clear the remainder of the objective. In closed terrain, the infantry lead, and provide that mutual support to the tanks because they’re more at risk in closed terrain. So it’s really a cooperative approach, with tanks and infantry working very closely together, often as part of a combat team. And what a combat team is, is a tank squadron—and a squadron is 19 tanks with a supporting echelon. The infantry company is part of that combat team. And they’re about 15 LAVs with about 100 soldiers or so 125 soldiers, as well as an engineer troop to provide mobility and counter mobility support, as well as a Forward Observation Officer, a FOO, incorporated into that combat team. And that in itself is a cohesive team that can provide a lot of flexibility and strength, and mutual support to each other while on the battlefield.

Capt Orton: So, when you’re kind of talking about that I think back to like my infantry warrants course. And we talked about weapons range bands. So, what that is for people may not know, is how far can your gun shoot right. And you have things like a rifle that maybe you can fire up to like 300, 400 metres. You got some things that maybe are shorter range, like anti-armour weapons. And you have things that are maybe a little bit longer range, like a sniper rifle. And then medium-longer range: a LAV, maybe you can reach out to 2.4, three kilometres. What about tanks? What is their strength in terms of that?

LCol Gray: Absolutely, and it’s definitely a part of that overall range band. The tanks can reach out and destroy another tank at about two and a half kilometres, and it can destroy a building or a non-tank like a lighter skinned vehicle at about four kilometres. So it adds to that range band construct, if you will, enabling a longer reach, a longer hit of firepower. And then, in addition to that, in the combat team with The FOOs, or the FACs, the Forward Air Controllers, they can strike targets even further in depth with artillery, and aircraft with close precision munitions.

Capt Orton: People might think: having such powerful weapons systems, it would be something that you have more prevalent in the battlefield instead of infantry, which are just small squishy people. Why not have giant metal guns everywhere? Like, why not more tanks?

LCol Gray: You know, having more tanks will be fantastic. But having the right number of tanks for the right number of crews, and the right number of personnel is critical. So, the important factor on the battlefield is obviously the terrain you’re on. So tanks don’t want to operate alone unless you’re in very open country. And infantry don’t want to operate alone, unless they’re in very close country or built up areas. So I think that close cooperation is key. And having the right balance of number of tanks to number of infantry and supporting vehicles is critical. And it allows that mutual support while providing additional firepower. You know, as tanks are advancing in closed terrain, the infantry are outside of their vehicles and maneuvering behind the tank using it as protection. And, you know, in the days of having a tank phone on the back of the tank, the infantry can actually provide the request for additional support and fire to an objective that the tankers may not see. So it’s all about that, that collective approach to operations—it’s critical.

Capt Orton: So your infantry are like a little bit more flexible, a little bit more mobile, they can go in places that giant armoured vehicles can’t. And, you know, infantry, by default, are fairly light—they can’t carry really heavy weapons, they can’t carry weapons, they can reach out three or four kilometres to do things. And then a tank is much larger, much heavier, much more protection, but has the capacity of providing like stabilized fire at great distances, they can destroy larger targets that infantry can’t. You know, that kind of stuff.

LCol Gray: Absolutely. And you know, the principles of armour, mobility, firepower, and protection are critical. Although the advancement technology on the modern battlefield can be concerning, there are additional pieces that we can incorporate that the Canadian Army is incorporating into future conflicts to be able to assist with enemy drones and enemy precision munitions and such like that. So, we are continuing to adapt our tactics, techniques, and procedures in order to account for the advancement of technology. But, specifically, you talked about manoeuvrability of the tank and that’s one of the added benefits to the tank and a squadron is the flexibility to adapt on the fly to an unforecasted change in the mission. With a quick set of radio orders, you can turn that whole sub unit, the squadron, on a dime, shift to another axis and respond to a threat that may have just come up. So, the ability to be able to provide those radio orders and turn that subunit is absolutely a game changer provides that shock action that the armoured corps strives to achieve.

Capt Orton: Can you speak a little bit also to the mobility in the sense of tracked vehicles versus wheeled vehicles? Like, why do tanks not have wheels?

LCol Gray: The track on a tank allows us to go a lot more places than a LAV and go. Each one of the road wheels—that’s within that track has its own suspension. And when you’re whipping across the countryside, it’s actually very, very smooth, you wouldn’t think of it from looking at it. But everything is absorbed into the suspension. And it can cover distances faster and go over some really rough terrain quite easily. Unlike the LAV with the wheeled chassis.

Capt Orton: It’s interesting you say that because LAVs are really bumpy. Like I’ve definitely as a driver hit a fairly big bump and launched a little bit. And when that thing comes down, it’s a rough ride—like you’ve got a couple of people in the back and they’re getting jumbled around and everything like and it seems like a big benefit in the grand scheme.

LCol Gray: It’s very smooth and such an exhilarating feeling when you’re whipping across that countryside 140 kilometres an hour. And firing that main gun at a target to your front or having multiple tanks all firing at the same time while you’re going cross-country is just amazing.

Capt Orton: People often under-appreciate also the challenge of cross country movement, because, you know, especially if you’ve driven on roads a lot or like exclusively, it’s not smooth driving across country even if it looks like a big open flat plain. There’s a lot of bumps and stuff like that and you can’t just go 120 over wide open flat terrain, you’re gonna bounce all over the place. So, going even something like 60 on open terrain—it’s a challenge.

LCol Gray: And it’s all part of the normal manoeuvre of tanks. So, whether they're operating in a troop, which is four tanks, or you’re operating in half Squadron, or a squadron minus—which is about half of that squadron. Or a full up squadron of 19 tanks all lined in a straight line and advancing together, if you’re moving on to an objective is just, it’s just an amazing feeling and seeing the ability to be able to manoeuvre and then prosecute targets, and then move to a position of exploitation where you can then provide mutual support to the infantry as they move on to that onto that objective and do the inner clearance. It just shows the merit of the Combined Arms approach.

Capt Orton: Yeah, and it’s really cool working—like, I was with the Strats in Afghanistan. And when you’re doing operations together, and you have like, let’s call it all the toys, all the pieces together, doing their own little part, it feels really well-rounded in the sense that—the range band is actually a really interesting way of describing it is—now you got some longer range stuff; you have a lot more punch to anything you can do; you also have a lot more protection, things you can hide behind. And it just increases that feeling of safety in that space when you’re on combat operations and things are happening.

LCol Gray: And you know, part of the training of preparing our forces to go abroad is working with all the different organizations and enablers that are part of that combat team. So as you mentioned, Afghanistan, we had the root clearance package with the engineers proving the road in front of the convoys or the tanks. Often when that was too problematic. We moved the tanks to open terrain, we can put our own implements down and plow through a potential minefield or an area of concern, prove that route, allow the engineers to then flag that route. And then the remainder of the combat team can roll through. So it’s all about the close coordination of training, enabling us to have safe execution of operations for force employment abroad;

Capt Orton: Maybe we should talk about, what do you need to run a tank? What does a tank look like in terms of, you know, crew and equipment and things like that?

LCol Gray: Sure, absolutely. The tank consists of four members for the crew: you’ve got a driver, you have a gunner, you have a loader, and then you have a crew commander. And the crew commander is ultimately in charge of that vehicle, but each person plays their critical role. And as I mentioned, they’re part of a crew—they’re part of a cohesive team. So if that takes breaks, everybody in the crew gets out in order to help prepare that tank. We’re supported by our maintainers, and the Echelon to be able to provide the resources so the fuel and the ammunition, the 120 millimetre rounds that go into that tank, and all the resources you require in order to sustain that tank, whether it’s POL, petroleum oils, and lubricants, or rations for the crew. Whatever it takes, all those components are built into that squadron to be able to support that crew in that tank.

Capt Orton: You know, it’s funny, I never actually knew the definition of POL before. It just is what it is—POL is, you know, the stuff. That’s funny. Now, you’re kind of talking about also working in, you know, a squadron, or even a troop. How are those vehicles supported? Because you got to worry about diesel, you got to worry about ammunition. And that doesn’t last forever. And it seems like it takes a lot of work to keep them running; you know, like it’s a big machine and cars break down.

LCol Gray: Oh, absolutely. Part of the things before we get into the sustainment of it is preventative maintenance. And that’s done by the driver and the crew to ensure that everything is functioning properly: checking your oil levels, checking your coolant levels, so on and so forth, doing hot checks after you’ve conducted operations for the day to make sure that everything is functioning normally constantly, inspecting the track to make sure it’s all placed properly. So that’s your internal task to the crew—to make sure that there’s no red flags, if you will be on the tank.

But secondly is the overall support for that tank and the remainder of the tanks in the tank squadron. So we have the armoured echelon and the echelon is commanded by the squadron Sergeant Major. So the Master Warrant Officer who is the command team partner of the major who’s in charge of that squadron. The Echelon is controlled by the sergeant major and in that Echelon has FARs: Forward Area Refueller. It also has trucks for ammunition. It has multiple vehicles with maintainers and parts, minor parts. It has the Armoured Recovery Vehicle, the ARV, which is an even bigger tank in the sense that it can extract a tank when a tank gets stuck, or it can pull the power pack on a tank which is the big back engine, pull that swap it out and put a new one in if you’ve got a faulty engine. It carries the implements, so the dozer blade, the mind plows, the mind rollers all on a low bed. So should the tactical situation require those implements that echelon has those parts, they can install them on the tanks for that particular operation. It has the rations for the crews, it has water and other resources as required to be able to support the movement of that tank. And, essentially, that Echelon can do a full up resupply; as we say: “Bombs, beans, and bullets.”You can do a full resupply of that squadron as a combat requirement should the operation, you know, expend a lot of those resources. And then that echelon goes back to the supporting squadron, so the headquarters squadron, to get its resupply. And then that squadron gets resupplied from the service battalion. You know, it’s all a logical process to be able to provide the resupply of all the supporting organisations.

Capt Orton: You know, it’s interesting, because we've been talking about, how do we talk about logistics on the podcast? Because it’s hard to connect that function to combat operations Like, it all makes sense—you need stuff to do things, but it’s a really good explanation of how all those pieces kind of connect together all the way back. So it’s really interesting to hear somebody explain that in a good way, I guess. So, what do we, as the Army, hold in terms of numbers and types of tanks?

LCol Gray: After Afghanistan, the Canadian Army and the CAF purchased the Leopard 2 family vehicles. And as part of the Leopard 2 family vehicles, there are 82 main battle tanks that were purchased, as well as, I believe 12 Armoured Recovery Vehicles, as we talked about those earlier, as well as about 18 Armoured Engineer Vehicles. And those provide mobility and counter mobility support to tank squadrons, providing additional breaching resources as required of those Leopard 2 main battle tanks that we have. Initially, there was 42 A4s that were purchased as well as 20 A4Ms and 20 A6Ms. And the M in those names stands for extra mind protection. So in the times of Afghanistan when we were faced with a lot more IEDs and improvised explosives, that mine protection was critical to Canadians. And we ensured that our operational tanks that we would be employing abroad have that extra capability. It’s not saying that the A4s don’t have the ability to go overseas and do operations—it just doesn’t have the extra mind protection. So they’re still operational tanks, we would typically use them more for training here, because they're less heavy and less wear and tear on the engine. But all three have various differences in how they work. They’re all common Leopard 2 chassis. And it’s the turrets that are different in those three variants of tanks.

Capt Orton: Yeah, and that’s something that’s, I think, probably often underestimated is, you know, your driver car gets wear and tear, it gets older, your seats get torn up, or whatever, engine rattles or whatever. And tanks get probably pushed pretty hard in terms of equipment—you do a lot of crazy stuff with them, like driving through forests, or whatever. And they probably need a little bit of TLC every now and then to keep them happy.

LCol Gray: We do what we can for regular maintenance following the inspection timelines of the tanks. And there are a lot of inspections that need to happen on a regular basis. But you’re right: over time, a lot of wear and tear on the vehicles, they need a full up maintenance cycle to be able to assist with ensuring their serviceability.

Capt Orton: So, Canada has donated a bunch of tanks in support of the Ukraine war effort. What’s going on with those?

LCol Gray: The tanks that Canada has donated, we donated eight times A4 tanks and one Armored Recovery Vehicle. Those were sent to Ukraine; we shipped them over there, we provided munitions, crew-served weapons, and a number of spare parts for those tanks, provided them to Ukraine. They have been used on Ukraine’s frontlines in fighting Russia. And we’ve seen them adapt their TTPs—their Tactics, Techniques and Procedures to provide additional protection to those vehicles and use them to counter the threat of Russia on their home terrain.

Capt Orton: Any interesting lessons learned come out of that, that you can speak to?

LCol Gray: There’s a lot of lessons learned, especially on how you maneuver your tanks as a combined arms team or a combat team. And the use of those tanks in open terrain, close terrain, canalising ground. Some of the lessons that we try to teach our young armoured soldiers, as well as showing the impacts of not following the drills exactly the way that we’ve practised them in the past.

Capt Orton: Yeah, it’s really interesting how this is one of those situations where I can just sit down on YouTube and watch a combined arms section attack from a drones-eye view because it’s just up there. And like, learn how to do infantry stuff or armoured stuff live, and watch the consequences of the manoeuvring—or like: “Oh, that looks like a mistake; something bad might happen.” And maybe something bad happens, or not. And you can learn a little bit about how the battlefield works. And I don't think that’s a thing that's really been easily available for just a random person at home to do before. So it’s a little bit wild

LCol Gray: With the advanced technology and drones and UAS, folks have the ability to launch a UAS from any vehicle if you will, and provide that eyes on an objective or eyes on a scenario and provide that additional assistance that you would never get just being on the ground. It changes the style, the maneuver of warfare.

Capt Orton: Yeah, absolutely. I would say that what’s been happening in Ukraine has definitely, maybe, reinvigorated people’s discussion on Armored Warfare a little bit more than in the past. Where do you see things going from here with regards to tanks and their role on the battlefield?

LCol Gray: Now, it’s a great point. In my humble opinion, tanks are absolutely required on a modern battlefield—to the point that the Chief of Defense Staff was in Latvia visiting our enhanced forward presence battle group, and indicated that we need to support that battle group by having a main battle tank squadron as part of it. And, recently, the Minister of National Defense announced that we were deploying one of the main battle tank squadrons to be able to be part of that enhanced forward presence battle group. So, for the foreseeable future, we will have a tank squadron deployed as part of that battle group positioned in Latvia as part of NATO’s deterrence operations, and providing that additional support to Eastern Europe, for multiple rotations. The first tank squadron is preparing for that deployment right now. And then additional tank squadrons will follow every six months. And on a yearly basis, continued.

Capt Orton: That sounds like a pretty incredible opportunity. Also, for new training options. I imagine that, you know, we don’t have a lot of opportunities to drop some heavy armour, you know, halfway across the world, and then be sending people down there to do stuff.

LCol Gray: It’s a great opportunity to train with our allies. That enhanced forward presence battlegroup is made up of a number of partner nations. And we will have a constant opportunity to train with our NATO allies in a combined arms context, all for deployed in the Latvia area. And there’s often opportunities to do other collective tank training with other allies that are there that might not be part of that battlegroup, because there are a number of battle groups in the Baltic nations there that are all being supported from other nations. So, it’s a great opportunity for our armoured soldiers to be employed abroad while doing their core skill set of being armoured crews.

Capt Orton: Sounds like you got your work cut out for you!

LCol Gray: Absolutely. But the troops are really looking forward to this opportunity. Because the last time tanks were deployed was in Afghanistan. And that was a number of years ago. So this is a great opportunity for those crews.

Capt Orton: Yeah, you know, the conversation comes up a lot, or, you know, people ask me: “Why do you want to do this?” Like: “Why do you want to be deployed?” You know, you’re far away from your family; you’re doing your thing. And it’s been my whole life training to do a thing. And it’s like going to the Olympics. It’s like, yeah, you’re far away from your family and all that stuff. But you are going through the ultimate life test, to see if preparing to survive in a high intensity conflict zone works, and that you learned all the things and you can do all this stuff.

LCol Gray: You know, we join, to go abroad and do good things. And to have this opportunity is critical. Don’t get me wrong, providing support to Canadians for floods and fires and other emergency requirements is also a very valuable skill that we can bring to the table. However, we do join to deploy and to provide additional security to those that can’t have it on their own. So, what a great opportunity for folks to deploy on their platforms, and provide that, that additional security.

Capt Orton: Well, I think we're doing it.

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Alright, well, thanks so much for coming on the podcast.

LCol Gray: Thanks so much, Adam, for allowing me to be here.

Capt Orton: Yeah, I really appreciate it. It’s been awesome. That was Lieutenant-Colonel Darryn Gray, Commanding Officer of the Lord Strathcona’s Horse. And I’m Captain Adam Orton for the Canadian Army Podcast. Orton out.

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