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Major Richard Bastien: You don’t want to vent or lose your cool to your supervisor. Sometimes they lose the trust in the chain of command.

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Lieutenant Adam Orton: Hi! Lieutenant Adam Orton here with the Canadian Army Podcast and today we’re going to talk about padres. “Go see the padre” is something that many soldiers have heard at one point or another throughout their careers, in some form or another. And, the role of the military padres in providing advice and guidance to soldiers who are experiencing personal problems has been around for more than a century. Major Richard Bastien is here today to tell us all about that. Good day, sir.

Maj Bastien: Hello Adam. Very pleased to be here today.

Lt Orton: It’s great to have you here. So, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Maj Bastien: Well, I’d like to say that I’m first married with a beautiful wife Andre for nearly 37 years now. And, we have two beautiful kids, adults: Samuel, who is in the military, as well as a traffic tech, And our daughter, Christina, she’s married to Jean Philip and they live in Montreal.

And, I’m a padre. I’m a padre, but more of a staff officer now, because I’m there to support the Army Command Chaplain who supervises all the chaplains, Reg Force, and Reserves, as well, across Canada. So, I’m there to support this person. But, I like as well to be available for the HQ to be their padre. Even though we are supported by Uplands Chaplains in Ottawa, I like to be available. And, I was able to give some support to our HQ members as well, because this is who I am—I’m a padre.

Lt Orton: I find it interesting particularly that you opened with kind of the family piece because, just before we started recording, we were talking about, kind of, the role of padres in the chaplaincy. And you were saying, you know, you’re there to support the families as much as the members because it’s all kind of part of the team.

Maj Bastien: Yeah, because I realized, in my life, that, yeah, I’m a professional, I’m a chaplain, I’m an officer, but I don’t like to describe myself to be just this. You know, because, one time, and for me it’s going to be very soon, I’m going to retire. And so, who am I exactly? I’m Richard. I’m a husband. I’m a father. I’m a friend. And, yes, I’m a professional as well. And, talking about the chaplaincy—a padre, yeah, he’s here to hear people, to support, to help, but we are there as well. We like to say that we are there to enhance the operational effectiveness of a unit. And we do that by supporting the unit morale, the personal well-being of members. We provide, of course, pastoral counselling, spiritual and religious guidance, and care. And, it’s not just about religion—because we have people who don’t practice any religion. That doesn’t mean that they don’t have some kind of spirituality.

I like a poster I saw when I went to a gym in a base somewhere, and it said PSP, who said something like “we are there to help our members to be physically fit for the task.” And, I like to say for myself as a padre “I’m there to help our members to be spiritually fit for the task.” It’s interesting because in the DAOD 5516, now we have a definition about spirituality; It’s very well recognized by the system that everybody has a kind of spirituality. Which means, they have freely or deeply personal convictions or beliefs connected to their spiritual faith or that person. So, I like to say that the science will, or the rational will tell you how things happen—and how, sometimes, bad things happen. Spirituality will tell you why. And sometimes people, when they go through difficult times—family crisis, bad news from the doctor—sometimes they will say “why did this happen to me?” And this is where they need to develop, and we help them to develop what we call a kind of spiritual resiliency. And the ability to recover from emotional, psychological, physical, strength, how they can adjust to adversity, traumatic change. You’ve been deployed, have been deployed, and we are faced with a traumatic situation. So, how can we bounce back from difficult situations? When I see this term “bouncing back,” I always have this illustration of in the Rocky movie, you remember Rocky? When he was hit so hard, oftentimes, and he is always jumping up, and you know, bouncing back. And, this is what we expect from our members. That, even though they go through difficulty, disappointment, they can have that kind of spiritual resiliency when they are able to bounce back from bad situations.

Lt Orton: The role of the Army really, in many ways, is to deploy and be operationally functional. And, if I think about my deployment, however you look at that, there’s a lot of changes in soldiers, as to that spirituality and religion; some people, maybe they became less religious or less spiritual, but definitely a lot of them became more so. I remember our deployed padre—I still remember his name from like ten years ago is Padre Kevin Olive, like, I remember who he is, and his participation and that stuff, and you definitely see that there is a need there for people on deployment to have access to that kind of resource.

Maj Bastien: Yeah, absolutely. This is the benefit to having a unit padre. In the Army, each unit, or almost each unit—they have a padre posted directly to their unit which facilitates this interaction with the people. We know them because we train with them. We deploy with them. They know us. We know the chain of command. The chain of command knows us. So, it’s easy for us, compared to, for example, having colleagues who are clinicians. So, they work with the mental health offices. So they are doing very great work, they are specialized to do that. But, for us, we are with them, so it’s easy for us to journey with them; they don’t need to have an appointment, for example, to meet with the padre. How many times I met with people and have interactions with people in the parking lot, you know. And we encourage our padre to socialize with the people and be with them. And that’s why we like being at their parties, for example, Christmas parties. That doesn’t mean we will party with them like they party—but we are there. And I remember, when I was in Greenwood Air Force Base, as a padre, I was with the Search and Rescue, the SAR Tech. And they are very close people, you know. And, it’s tough, sometimes—as a padre, as a new padre—to be able to, how can I say, to interact with them.

Lt Orton: Yeah, get in there, be a part of the group.

Maj Bastien: Yes, but it takes, unfortunately, one bad situation when one of the wives’ members was killed in a motorcycle accident. And, the guy, of course, was devastated. And I remember, again, his teenager. I just offered him my support. Is it something I can do? He was not a religious guy, but he said “yeah, I would need to plan the funeral. Can you help me with that?” So, I just facilitated; I just helped him. He was not of the same denomination as me, but it doesn’t matter. Because, I could just support him and be involved, and I just did it. And, I remember we did that at the chapel at the funeral home. And, it’s a small community, but it was packed—hundreds of people inside, and there were motorcyclists, because they were a part of a motorcycle club outside. And, what is interesting, is the week after, when I showed up at the unit and I went to visit to do what we called my ministry of presence. And, most of the time when I went there it was like “hello padre,” and they would just continue to do their stuff. When I showed up the senior SAR Tech just came to me and gave me—oh my gosh, a big hug in front of everybody else. In front of the SAR Tech and “welcome padre. We are so pleased, and thank you for what you did for our member.” And since that time, I was a part of them, you know. They brought me to their exercise, and in the big helicopter Cormorant, and I did some exercises with them. I got sick every time. It’s not funny over there.

Lt Orton: Yeah.

Major Bastien: But yeah, I was able just to be part of them because I just decided, and this is what we should do as a padre, to support as much as I can.

Lt Orton: I find it really interesting, particularly as you’re talking about SAR Techs because, you know, they’re one of the more intense trades out there, and very specialized and really good at what they do. You know, I’m thinking about when I first did basic in St. Jean, you’re all young soldiers, gung ho and ready to do stuff, and you all want to be tough and not show any weakness. And, one of the biggest signs of weakness when you’re going through basic is going to the padre and talking about your problems and stuff. And then, here we are, talking about SAR Techs and how they have that ability to connect with their padres. So, what would you say to a young soldier, who may be listening to this, you know—they’re on basic on week three and they are like “ah you know what, if you need a padre that’s weakness and going to talk to people, I should be able to do this.”

Maj Bastien: Yeah, “I will try to fix it myself.” And, this is a true mentality sometimes, that we want to change. Because, what is happening when you break your leg? Do you say, “oh I’m going to fix it myself?” No, you’re going to take advantage of the resources that we provide. So you’re going to go to the doctor because you know that the doctor can fix it. So, when you are facing some difficult times, why not go to the resource? And the padre is a resource that is there to help you, to support you, going through some difficult times. And, particularly for the young, or the low-rank people, because it’s difficult for them sometimes to have access to some answers.

I remember how many times I helped some corporal because they were submitting a memo and they had no answer. And, you just need one supervisor that doesn’t care. Most of them, they care. But, you just need one who just forgot. And, they try to ask the next level of rank. And sometimes they will be just rebuked because “oh I don’t have time for that. We told you that when we have an answer, we’re going to tell you.” And sometimes, they need the answer because the wife or the spouse, you know, is looking for an answer. And, it’s difficult for them because they won’t go directly to the captain, adjutant, the Adj, or talk to a senior NCO, you know. They will go to the chain of command, because this is what they ask to do.

So, how many times have I had someone come into my office, and I didn’t tell them, but in my mind I would say “oh my gosh they are coming six months later,” you know. It’s not too late! We try to fix that. But, it’s so easy when you know they don’t have any answer. Go to your padre because the padre has the ability and this opportunity to advocate on your behalf. And, to be able to question different levels of the chain of command. We have access to the chain of command. As I use to say, the padre doesn’t have any power, so he will not necessarily fix your problem. But he has influence, and he has access to all the levels of the chain of command. Of course I will also work with the lowest supervisor. But, if I’m not satisfied with a supervisor, I can go directly to a CO if I want. I can go directly to the Chief Warrant Officer if I want. I try to avoid that because I don’t want to bypass everybody. But, I have this opportunity. So, because I care—I do care for the members. And, sometimes it’s not just because the chain of command doesn’t want to care, but posting, chain of command, so the file is falling in the cracks, and the member is still waiting for an answer. So, go talk to the padre, and the padre will be able to facilitate your needs—to facilitate your request.

Lt Orton: Do you think that system is open or prone to being abused?

Maj Bastien: Well, we hear that often times: “he’s using the system.” I prefer to say that a member benefits from the system because there’s a need. And who am I to judge somebody who has been assessed by professionals and can get access to some services? Who am I to judge that? You know? So, it’s easy to point out somebody and say “yeah, they abused the system.” But I prefer to say that they will benefit from the system. And, again, when they come to us as padre, it’s not always that they are going to get what they want. Sometimes they are not going to get what they are looking for. But we will work with them for a plan that will bring them to be fit. Because this is the aim, you know. Sometimes they will need a pause—they will need our help, you know that they are going to have a pause for specific training, or not being deployed. Okay, I hear that, and I can help them, you know, to have the favor from the CO. That, okay, for this time, we are going to give you a pause. But we need to have a plan. What’s next? And, what will happen if it’s denied, the request is denied—do you have another plan? So, this is the kind of situation. We talk with the members and we try, sometimes, to lower the expectation.

I have members coming into my office, and I had to be honest with them, and realizing that some of them will say “do you think I could stay almost forever where I am because my family is near, and I’m happy being in that city.” And I would always say “well, there is no guarantee.” There’s never a guarantee that you cannot be posted this year, next year, it’s never a guarantee. I’ve been posted six times in eighteen years. Almost every three years we have been posted out to another place. So, there’s no guarantee that you can stay where you are, or you can be posted, or where you’re going to be posted. You can be posted to a place that you will not want to go, but this is part of the deal. If you want to be a part of the Regular Force, you have to accept that”.

Lt Orton: That’s the job.

Maj Bastien: That’s the job. And sometimes we need to discuss that, to be honest with our member, and say “maybe the Reg Force is not for you anymore.”

Lt Orton: The Padre Corps is commissioned officers, and, so, the other thing is, maybe for people thinking that people are abusing the system—really, it’s another set of eyes on a document or on a problem, that, you know, that doesn’t take away from anything. And, you know, there’s still the capability of reasoning and analyzing that problem. So, I mean, you know how the Army works. You look at that and you say to yourself “yeah, okay, this is an unreasonable request.” But if you say “hey, maybe there is a problem here,” then it’s just another set of eyes that can look at it, another resource to try and tackle a potential problem—whatever that problem happens to be.

Maj Bastien: Yeah, absolutely. We try to see all the options that could be possible. Maybe it’s not the option that they are looking for. Maybe there’s other kinds of options—COA, as we used to say—that they can be satisfied with. Or, it’s a temporary option. And, sometimes, they just need to realize that “okay, maybe it’s time for me to do something else because it’s too demanding, you know—for my family or for myself.”

Lt Orton: Yeah, and those are hard conversations to have. But sometimes you have to have them.

Maj Bastien: Yeah, absolutely. And we try to be as much as we can, honest with the people.

Lt Orton: I think, even in just the time that I’ve been in, there’s been a lot of changes in how the Canadian Armed Forces and the Army has evolved. And, we look at, you know, the Padre Corps as it is. There’s a lot of, I want to say, it’s not new faiths—but there’s a wide diversity of faiths that are a part of what we do. How do the Padre Corps handle this wide diversity of religions which include the Sikhs, Buddhists, and a number of other religions, when you’re required as an individual—as a padre—to have a specific background?

Maj Bastien: We’re very proud to be what we call a pluralistic diverse chaplaincy. And, of course, we represent the society. So, we try to recruit, as much as we can, diversity amongst the padres. But the padre is not just there to serve, what we used to say, minister to our own. Of course, the Catholic chaplain can work with catholic people, protestant, but we have an imam, as well, to represent the Muslim people. We have rabbis to represent the Jewish people. And if we have other people, like other communities—like you mentioned, the Buddhist, Buddhism, and the Sikhs—I know that the chaplaincy is trying to recruit those faith leaders as well. But, I would say, most of the time when someone is coming to me, there is nothing about their religious needs. If I can provide them that kind of need, of course I will do it. If I cannot do it, I can refer them to a colleague. And, if I don’t have such a military chaplain’s colleague who can do that, we will just refer them to the civilian faith group. We do that a lot when we deploy. And, when we are deployed this is a part of our task to make sure that we know all the religious leaders or the religious representatives in the country to be able to have a connection with them—and as well, sometimes to be able to refer a member who has some religious needs. But, most of the time, when a member comes to the padre, it’s because he has some issue with the chain of command, or some request as said before. And, I can be any type of faith group representative and I can still help my members. You know, how many times I have people who have no faith affiliation—and they don’t care about that because they care about their issue, their problem or a family issue. And of course, I can support them.

With regard to who can be a padre, of course, we have some hiring criteria. Chaplains, first, must be ordained or mandated by a registered faith tradition. So, they need their faith tradition to be recognized by the Government of Canada. So you cannot just improvise yourself as a faith leader. They need to have a graduate level professional degree in a faith tradition formation, like a Master of Divinity or the equivalence. They need to be a member in good standing with a national faith tradition governing authority, and have at least two years of full-time experience. So, there’s an endorsement by a committee; we call it the Inter-Faith Committee of the Canadian Military Chaplaincy. So, this committee represents different kinds of denominations, and this committee will endorse a member based on the criteria I just mentioned. And, finally, they need to be selected by our Chaplain General. The other criteria as well, you need to qualify to be an officer, because you’re a padre, you’re a chaplain but you’re part of the officer as well. So you need to go through all the basic training for officers. Of course, we have our own military chaplain training in Bordon. And because you are also a staff officer, like myself, most of my job now is to be a staff officer. And, I’m an advisor, and I advise, here, some generals. So I need to know what I am talking about, and staff work, and you know that, Adam.

Lt Orton: Yeah, I know about staff work.

Maj Bastien: You know, when you present a document, it needs to be well done. So, we train our padres, as well, to be a staff officer, yeah.

Lt Orton: I think that covers pretty much everything that I ever wanted to know and more about the chaplaincy. But is there anything else you’d like to add?

Maj Bastien: Maybe just to talk about our Sentinel Program. Because, how many times I have people coming to me saying, ah, I would like to be a padre, but I am not a religious person, but I like to help people. So, the chaplaincy has developed what we call the Sentinel Program which is a training program. It’s a group of trained, supervised, non-professional people whose purpose is to improve human contact on a day-to-day basis through a set of good behaviour, of course, and attitude they use with their peers. It’s a buddy system. So, we train them to increase an active listening among peers so they are able to detect signs and symptoms of distress, for example. Or offer support, or refer to appropriate resources like the unit Padre, or it can be as well the professional support at the health services. So it’s a half day of training when we just tell people how they can be a better listener to their peers and detect maybe some issues. And people appreciate that kind of training because they feel that they can be helpful, as well, to others—with some limitations, of course.

Lt Orton: And not only are you there for, you know, your buddies—but in addition to that, you know, that kind of thinking and experience can translate well on the civilian side; just to be there for people outside of the military, and be there for people in general.

Maj Bastien: Yeah absolutely—and of course, everything is always under confidentiality. People can expect that they are going to be respected when they come to us. Except for three reasons: of course, if a person may pose a threat to others or to themselves—now, I cannot keep it to myself; if there is an abuse of children; or if there is an order by a court of law. But, every time somebody wants to talk to the padre, they can expect that it is going to be behind closed doors, and then if they don’t give us permission to talk to somebody else, we keep it at our level. It’s an opportunity as well for our members to just sometimes vent. You know, you don’t want to vent or lose your cool, as we say, to your supervisor. I don’t encourage people to do that. But to the padre, you can do that. Sometimes it is just the opportunity to “okay, I need to talk to somebody. I don’t want to talk to my colleague. I don’t want to talk to the chain of command.” Sometimes they lose the trust in the chain of command, for different kinds of reasons. Talk to your padre. Go to see the padre. Talk with them, and you are going to be surprised how they can help you, support you, and advocate on your behalf.

Lt Orton: Well, thanks very much for your time, sir. I really appreciate it.

Maj Bastien: Yeah, it’s my pleasure.

Lt Orton: That was Padre Major Richard Bastien.

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Lt Orton: Also, talking to us about the Sentinel Program. If you’re interested in the Sentinel Program, take it up with your chain of command, communicate to them, and we can arrange to help you out with that. There are resources online. Feel free to write to us if you have any questions. As usual, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast to stay up to speed on what’s coming out next. I’m Lieutenant Adam Orton. You stay frosty.

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